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New Position on Fuel over the winter

 
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leokow
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: New Position on Fuel over the winter Reply with quote

I was in a marina the other day and found this news item obviously clipped from a magazine article or news letter it was written by Wendy Gilbert but I can't credit the mag. because the name is gone but it is from this September's issue.According to her and a poll of boat manufacturers the most of them are reccomending the boats be stored EMPTY of fuel this winter. If that isn't possible then use an enzyme based fuel teatment and definitely not an ALCOHOL based one.. The ideal thing to do is store it as close to empty as possible and if you can't add the stabilizer and run it thru the system so that the stabilizer is thru out the system. There is an initiative going on in Maryland now to exempt marine industry from E-10.
I wouldn't put too much faith in that happening. Also most of the marina owners that she interviewed seem to think that the spring will bring us the most problems,especially in large and older boats. There are definitely only two methods of storage that are now being considered safe. Full and treated with the enzyme base additive or empty with some additive left in the system ,tanks and lines.The interviewed marina owners and the manufacturer reps. refused to name any specific product to use but from what I can gather from most of the marinas around here the number one additive is STARTRON. They make both items a fuel tank cleaner and a storage additive. This is what Mike, recommended to me a couple of months ago when I was having tank problems,and at least a dozen different mechanics that I've talked to have agree,you must use an enzyme based additive ,the alcohol based ones will only make the problem worse.Well I'm going to go for the empty tanks, as ,I now have 7 of them , and will put the startron in them all and I'm sure some of you will do it the old way and put them away full, we will see in the spring how things turn out ,hopefully, both systems will work and we'll all be safe for next year. Or is that too much to ask for?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Leo. seems I made the right choice with leaving my tanks empty! I was wondering about the compatibility of the marvel mystery oil I dump down my carb when winterizing with the new e10 fuel. I dont think its a problem, but who can say for sure these days.
Like I said on the old site, I felt it was better to leave them empty and pump out some fuel before the seperators next spring, that way if the fuel is bad, I wont have to worry about getting rid of 140 gallons of bad fuel.
I think next spring, a lot of my fellow boaters here will have a problem as most of them are filling their tanks because the price is so low, $2.30 a gallon compared to over $3 last spring. I tried to explain what could happen when the fuel sits a long time and I dont think anybody believed it. I put some in a glass jar and keep it on my boat and when it seperates, I'm going to show it to other boaters here. Its hard to overcome years of filling your tanks every fall to prevent moisture buildup, no one understands the new E10 fuel is not as stable as the old fuel
Terry
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: picture of what Terry is talking about Reply with quote

The problem with the ethanol fuel is that it will phase separate once it has absorbed enough water - and because ethanol's hydroscopic nature is will attract water readily out of the air - Water in the fuel will increase over time - So what happens when the ethanol has absorbed as much water as it can it phase separates -



So what you have here is water and ethanol on the bottom and gasoline on the top - Now here is the problem most engine manufactures state that their engines will tolerate up to a 10% ethanol mixture - OK so what do we have in our tanks after the winter is a tank that has phase separated to water and ethanol and gasoline on the top - So here is the rub - where is your pickup tube drawing the fuel from - Yep you guess right from the bottom of the tank - Oh that is where the water and ethanol is - so what did those engine manufacturers say up to 10% ethanol OPPS!

Not to mention that since the ethanol has separated from the gasoline it is not doing what is was design to do which is oxygenate the gasoline so now you not only have a phase separation problem but you can also have a gasoline that has not been oxygenated. which translates to poor engine performance - or complete breakdown where the engine won't run at all - Now where will this be most noticeable on older engines that have carburetors and not smart ignition control like the newer EFI models which can adjust timing under computer control based on exhaust gas oxygen content -

Well I think that just about describes every Pacemaker and Alglas out there we have the older carb engines -

Hope this helps in the discussion -

Mike - Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I could suggest is to make your fuel tanks air tight during the winter. If the ethanol isnt open to moist air, it cant pull in the water. This means you would have to totally seal the vents on each tank, plus still add the stabilizer to slow the seperation. if your tank is full to the top and you seal the vents, filler tubes and seal the gas lines, you might not get the water/ethanol seperation. Anyone want to try it? Me, I'm gonna leave my tanks empty
Terry
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:02 pm    Post subject: fuel expansion Reply with quote

Terry hold on a moment if you fill the tanks when the fuel is cold and more dense and then you plug the vents - what happens when the fuel warms and expands and has nowhere to go - OOPS Shocked

Mike - Smile
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leokow
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AHHH, Mike , man, I'm glad you got to Terry with that answer on what happens if you try plugging the tank vents, very bad idea Terry, you get 20 lashes with a wet speggetti for that one. !LOL. When spring time comes and those tanks warm up to the sun the fumes need somewhere to go and if the vents are plugged and you have a weak spot in one of your tanks (I know yours are new, I'm thinking of everyone else) or the hoses are weak guess what happens ! Autos have a closed fuel system ,from the gas cap thru the tank and to the injectors,theoretically nothing should escape from your auto. Boats have whats called a breathing system, as the fuel expands and contracts the vent is the release point,unfortunately, when the gas gets cold and shrinks the moist outside air gets sucked back in thru the vents therby depositing moisture into the tank which condenses on the cold metal then drips down into the fuel. The ethanol absorbs as much as it can then it along with the water drops out to the bottom in what Mike related to as phase separation. You suck this into the engine ,the engine can't compress water, so ,bent rods or valves, at the worst , and rough running or hard starting at the least. I will leave my tanks empty with about 8ozs. of startron in them.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Mike, Thats why I'm leaving mine empty as I think its the only option until more is known. I think next spring, there will be a lot of discoveries made when getting your boat ready for launch.
Like I said, my tanks are new, so I'm not worried about rust or corrosion, water can be drained or pumped out of the fuel tank and lines. If the small amount of fuel left in my tanks becomes bad, I can add a lot of fresh fuel on top or just pump it out. Plugging vents is not the way to go for sure
Terry
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:39 am    Post subject: Have to agree! Reply with quote

Next Spring will be the tell tale as to the ethanol situation - Bet we will have many issues - It is going to be interesting -

Mike - Crying or Very sad
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philplacko
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: same here Reply with quote

I had this problem when I bought the boat 2 years ago, by letting it sit all winter with alot of fuel and one engine just would not run right no matter what I did until this year when I stored her empty and filled her tanks only half and replaced it sooner than if I filled the tanks and it ran fantastic. Of course here in lake erie I can take a day trip on half a tank and there are filing stations every where around the marina's so i never worry about running out. I do Have a question, has anyone put a tank gauge on one yet or is everyone still using the sticks???
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil, When I got my new tanks last year they came with senders, so I installed 2 gages on the flybridge, one for each engine. Its not that hard, the gages have 4 hookups, one to the sender marked S and one for the ignition marked I, the ignition wire can go to any key activated system. There is a light wire, which can be piggy-backed onto other dash lights, and lastly is the ground wire.
You will have to either cut holes with a hole saw or make a mounting bracket and mount under your dash to install the actual gage
Terry
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leokow
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: Tank guages Reply with quote

Phil, I put the senders and guages on mine the day after I bought her 12 ears ago. That stick thing is crazy, when your on the ocean, your situation is a little different. Later...Leo
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rebait
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Winter Storage Reply with quote

After much research I have decided to run my tanks as empty as possible. I already added Startron and I want to get a striper trip in before I pull it for the winter. The theory being that ethanol absorbs water, there will be less fuel to absorb it and filling them before launching, or even starting the engine, it will mix the small amount of old fuel with fresh fuel treated with Startron, allowing the seperator and filters to do their jobs. After refueling, Change the seperator and filters and hopefully it will be trouble free.

John
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like you John, I ran my tanks down to less than 5 gallons in each tank. My logic is that this way I can pump the tanks dry right into five gallon buckets by unhooking the fuel line before the water seperators. I should be able to empty the tanks almost completely. This way, I can see what the fuel looks like before anything is pumped into the fuel system. The only area where I can forsee any problem this way is the fuel left in the lines to and from the fuel pump and whats left in the bowl of the carbs. I'm going to try the oily rag over the carb, but have already run some marvel mystery oil down the carbs with the engines running. I might blow the lines out in the spring and have the fuel line disconnected at the carb and use the starter motor to pump fresh fuel up to the carb before I try and start the engines.
Lets hope everybody has no problems with this fuel next spring
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Winter and E-10 again Reply with quote

When I get back to Philly this week I am going to post the absolute latest on this subject. it will be a reprint from a magazine and it turns everything topsy turvy AGAIN. Seems as though there were some side by side comparisons of products that claim to be able to re-constitute E-10 after phase separation,and only one has successfully acomplished this. There no sense re-typing the results here.after you read the article it'll become much clearer. The bottom line is you can fix the fuel if it phases out. The product is made by MDR and it's called E-ZORB.
As far as empty or full tanks it seems as though we're back to full, at least 95%. With a fuel stabilizer, the reason being the same as always, less room in the tanks for condensation to collect on the walls of the tanks and dropping back into the fuel. As far as leaving the tanks enpty and just taking the remaining fliuid out at the water separator in the spring there is one small problem, your fuel pick up does not go all the way to the bottom of your tank it stops about 1/2 inch from the bottom, this could be as much as 5 gallons of fuel or more,and trying to drain it with the pick up as it is will be an exercise in futility. The pick up has to be removed and a piece of tubing put on the end to extend it completely to the bottom , then you'll be able to get the majority of liquid out of the tanks and begin the season without too much trouble. Like ,Terry I have left my 2 -57 gal. metal tanks empty, with just startron in them so I'll have to deal with it in the spring,but the 3 poly tanks I have are full and have the stabilizer in them. When I run the reprint in a few days things will seem much clearer,I just wish all the powers that be would have done their testing a few months earlier and done away with all this confusing and conflicting data.
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rebait
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After giving this much thought, and reading many articles on winter storage, the only thing that all of these authorities can agree on is to use an additive that contains no alcohol. Both theories on storing the tanks full or empty make sense. In the past, I have stored my boats with the tanks full most of the time. A few times when pressed for time I would winterize the engine and fill the tank later, only to be sidetracked. I never had a problem with water. But I had always filled the tank and changed the seperator filter after the initial run. Let's hope for the best and everyone has no problems.

John
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leokow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I agree with what you said and have done the same thing on some ocassions, the only difference is this time your dealing with ethanol which reacts very differently with water than regular gas that we were used to using. In the past the water would just sit on the bottom and not affect the gas on top , now the water is absorbed by the ethanol until it becomes so saturated that it falls out of the gas mixture and lays on the bottom leaving the top gas near worthless and the bottom mixture if it gets drawn into your engine a motor killer. It seems to me that the metal tanks are the ones they are most concerned with, so in the two boats that I have there are 5 poly tanks that are full and 2 metal tanks that are empty with startron in them, in the spring I'll suck out whats in the metal tanks and see what I have and cross my fingers that the poly tanks are just fine.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo, I didnt think about the pickups not going all the way down to the bottom! I know that my pickups will still suck up fuel at 5 gallons because when I put the new tanks and engines in, I put 5 gallons of gas in each tank and then ran the engines. letting them warm up and then setting the carbs and the timing all on just the 5 gallons.
I might see if I can get some of the special chalk used at gas stations and stick my tanks in the spring to see if there is water in the tanks.
I could alway add more fuel on top of whats in there in the spring and let it sit for a few days, then suck some out with my pump into a bucket and see whats what.
If i can find that stabilizer, I might just risk topping my tanks now because the cost is a lot cheaper than it will be next spring
Terry
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leokow
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry , the stuff the gas stations use is sold at marine stores too. I think it's also made by MDR. And that's just the purpose it's made for ,checking for water in your tanks. I use a wood dowel and remove the pick-up then stick the dowel down the pick up hole so that I'm in the place where the most water will congregate,and see what happens to the paste on the bottom of the dowel,if it changes color then there's water ,if not then all is OK. I'm gonna ask my favorite lady to show me how to get that article on right now and maybe it'll help clear some things up.

Sorry everyone for screwing up the article that used to follow this post , I will try again and hopefully this time I wil suceed....I deleted the old post as it was worthless in the condition it was in and with 20 or more hits on it I will assume that people were interested in it.


Last edited by leokow on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys,

This topic is drivng us all nuts. If there is already water in your tank or your tank or fuel system already has problems, whatever you do now, (keep the tank full or not), is not going to make the problem go away. This is a preventitve measure. At work our fuel vendor gave us a different paste to test for water in our fuel. I will inquirer on Monday why. A couple of years ago we had to deal with the problem of being mandated to use biodiesel. We had a lot of problems, but we dealt with them and solved them. I know that this is a big concern to ALL of us. What I am trying to say is that we should not panic but try to solve the problems if they do come about and just plan to enjoy the next season or if you are striper fishing now, (Just to bust everyone, my son and I had bass today, 8- 5 shorts ( not bad) 1 18lb, 1 22lb, 1 29lb. All were released. I hate to report that all were caught on my 18ft center console.

John
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leokow
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, that's just it , this is a solution for already having water in your tanks, this product converts the water and separated ethanol back into a usable mixture that your engines can burn with out any ill effects,and so far even though other products have claimed to be able to do this ,it's the only only one that's proved it actually can.That's what those articles are about that I put on the post. If you can't read them for some reason like the type comes up too small ,let me know and I'll e-mail them to you. I'm worried about it because my boat holds 214 gals. of gas and I can't afford to throw that much money down the drain,nor do I want to worry about it all winter, I saw what happened to some boats about 10 years ago when they tried this without telling anyone and it wasn't pretty. Now with this product it'll make things a lot easier, even if you do get contaminated ,there's a way to correct it. BTW...nice catch. We picked up about 1/2 dozen shorts in the 25 to 27 inch range then got a nice 38 for dinner. That was just before thanksgiving, I haven't been back out since, I'm in the middle of fixing the kitchen and the last 3 days have been just beautiful ! I figured they'd be cold and mizerable. good thing I'm not a weatherman..LOL C ya later...Leo
PS----Send some of those fish down below barnegat light , will ya ?
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