Pacemaker Boats

shawn_carlson · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: More Engine Troubles

I installed a rebuilt carb.. engine runs good problem solved. However, I then began the arduous task of changing my mainfolds and risers (Chrysler 318, fresh water cooled) ...now this turned out to be 2 day event, so I could be losing it.

Now when I run the engine my antifreeze shoots right out with the exhaust (drains very quickly 10 - 15 seconds). Oil is fine, engine sounds great. I checked (and rechecked) and I am using the right gaskets (no hole elbow to manifold, hole for riser to elbow). The hose connections seem right. Am I missing something (other than my mind)?

changeofpace · Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:54 am Post subject:

Shawn, There should be a block off gasket between the riser and the manifold to prevent the anti freeze from mixing with the raw water. If the anti freeze is coming out the exhaust, thats the first place to check
Terry

rebait · Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:05 am Post subject:

Shawn,

If everything was fine before you took it apart and everything is new, what Terry says makes sense.

Good Luck,

John

changeofpace · Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:

Shawn, a little more detail. In the riser there are a couple of passages that allow the raw water to flow from the manifold into the riser. In a closed cooled system, these are blocked off with a plate and gasket. If you have a normal gasket, it will not block off these passages so that the anti freeze will flow from the manifold into and out the riser just as when the system was raw water cooled. The fact it takes 15 seconds to empty the anti freeze seems to indicate these passages are open and not blocked.
Check out the differences in the 2 gaskets in this link.
http://www.marinepartssource.com/details.asp?pnumber=4492257K

shawn_carlson · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:28 am Post subject:

I have slighly different risers (they come in 2 pieces) than what was shown in your link. I have checked and the gaskets are correct. They are definiately blocked off.

There is one possibility that I over looked (and talking with a few others who had this problem) is that one of the new mainfolds is bad. Next weekend I am going to test each maifold to ensure there wasn't a bad casting.

Terry and John, thanks again for your help.

Please see for a picture.

http://www.marinepartssource.com/chryslerpb/6874-exris.asp

changeofpace · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:03 am Post subject:

Shawn, The manifold would have been my next choice to test/inspect. The risers are always easier to check and most of the times people forget to change the gaskets when switching over to closed cooling. The speed at which you empty the anti freeze seems to be a big leak almos like a hole or a bad setup with the hoses, closed cooling line hooked into raw water side
Let us know how the manifold test goes.

shawn_carlson · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:08 am Post subject:

Terry,

I believe you may be right and at first I thought I switched the gaskets or the hoses. There really isn't too many places where I could have crossed the hoses. They just aren't that close together. I even brought the guy with the boat next to me over to check the gaskets to see if I was nuts. I figured it had to be the gaskets, but they are fine.

However, I was looking at it for 2 days straight, so maybe a fresh set of eyes next weekend might reveal I overlooked the obvious (wouldn't be the first time).

changeofpace · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:41 am Post subject:

I was thinking, we might have missed something obvious and that would be the lines hooked to the heat exchanger tank or the tank itself could have a leak. If you want to rule out the tank, unhook the lines for the raw water and see if the anti freeze comes out of the hose connections for the raw water side

shawn_carlson · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject:

Will do. However, I ran the engine for about 10 minutes before changing the manifolds (check rebuilt carb installation) and had no problem. The only thing that changed was the manifolds, but at this point I'll take a look at everything.

Thanks.

changeofpace · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject:

OK, maybe the manifold inputs are different than the old ones and the lines are crossed there

shawn_carlson · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject:

Its possible. The old ones were made by Osco and the new ones by Barr.

changeofpace · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject:

Check out these instructions and see if they will help you
http://inetmarine.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=6

shawn_carlson · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject:

Thanks Terry. I'll print it out and bring a copy with me.

shawn_carlson · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:

I spoke with the place I bought the manifolds from to see if a bad manifold was common (or if he even heard of it) and he said it may also be a bad head gasket. If that were the case, I would have expected antifreeze in the oil as well. Any thoughts?

Could be strange coincidence, but if it was a bad head gasket I would have had the problem before changing the manifold.

changeofpace · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject:

I dont think its a bad head gasket for the reasons you listed, there would have been water or antifreeze in the oil. The antifreeze wouldn't be coming out the exhaust unless you have a cracked head with the crack being between the water passage and an exhaust port

shawn_carlson · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject:

Given how quickly the antifreeze drains, it would have to be one heck of a crack.

rebait · Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject:

Shawn,

I would be shocked if it is the head. 1, You did not have the problem until you changed the manifold. 2, It drains too quick out the exhaust. 3, I have seen cracked heads / head gaskets before that there was no trace of anti freeze in the crankcase, but it did not drain that fast. It has to be with the manifolds or the fresh water cooling system, but it ran fine until the manifolds were changed.

John

shawn_carlson · Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:00 am Post subject:

I agree. I'll check the manifolds first. If not then I'll take it apart and reconnect the hoses. It's possible I crossed something somewhere. I have a feeling its probably something obvious that I stared at 5 times already. Fresh eyes on Saturday should help.

shawn_carlson · Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject:

This may be a dumb question, but being stuck behind a desk all day has me dreaming of boating.

The gasket for the end plate (end of the manifold opposite the riser), should that be blocked (no hole) or open (with a hole)?

Currently, I have gaskets with a hole, but in hinesight I think thats wrong. The end plate should be blocked.

changeofpace · Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject:

Shawn, I think it should be blocked to prevent the raw water from mixing with the antifreeze. My manifolds are Barr Marine center risers for small block chevy engines. They are completely closed with no raw water flowing through them. The raw water only goes through the heat exchanger and out the exhaust through the riser. The engine cooling goes through the block, water pump. heat exchanger and manifold in a loop. Big line from the water pump to the heat exchanger, small line from the water pump to the intake manifold, 1 line from the heat exchanger to the bottom of the exhaust manifold and the line from the top of the exhaust manifold to the thermostat housing (1 for each exhaust manifold)

rebait · Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:

Shawn,

Looks like you found the culprit. Mine are set up like Terry's. This weekend is a bust for me. I have to "help" get ready for my daughter's wedding shower for Sunday. My wife, sister in law and the bridal party have a list of things for my brother in law and me to do. If the problem persists and I can slip away for a few hours maybe a set of fresh eyes can help.

John

shawn_carlson · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:13 am Post subject:

I am going to head down after work today and change the gaskets in the end plates. Won't take long to change and hopefully solve my problem. I have a feeling only one of the gaskets is off because I'm only losing antifreeze, not getting raw water mixed in... but we'll see. I could also just take a look whats on the other engine, but I don't want to drain the antifreeze if I don't have to.

Although, I do think its odd. They make two types of end plates for my manifolds. One has a fitting for a 1/2" hose to be connected (which I have, with hose attached) and 1 that's completely blocked off (solid piece). If I wasn't going to be circulating anything through the ends of the manifold, why put the fitting there? Just use the blocked off end plate. It was probably done this way so I'd have everything I needed if I wanted to switch to raw water cooling, but tough to figure out when reassembling. However, if I block off the end plates how does the antifreeze circulate through the thermostat? Man, once I figure this out I am going to label the hoses for future reference so I don't go through this again.

John and Terry thanks again.

John help is always very much appreciated, but please don't let me interfer with your family oblgations (and I'm not willing to throw in the towel just yet). If you are ever in the Tuckerton area, I'm at Cedar Cove Marina on South Green Street...2 minutes from the Seaport. The boat's name is Scusset. Good luck with your daughter's bridal shower.

shawn_carlson · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:11 am Post subject:

A co-worker (who has never even seen a marine engine) suggested a good idea for checking the setup on the other engine. I didn't check the gasket on the starboard engine because I didn't want to remove the antifreeze, to remove the end plate. He suggested I simply remove the hose and take a look or use a pencil to see if the gastket is blocked off... beginner's luck.

shawn_carlson · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:25 am Post subject:

Problem Solved

There were actually few things going:

1. My exhause had antifreeze in the lines from when I originally had the wrong gasket in place.

2. I did have a small antifreeze leak, but it wasn't to the exhaust. The manifold was leaking in the front closes to the gas tank. Loose bolt, once I tightented it was solved.

3. I drained about a gallon form the manifolds when I exchanged them. So, I assumed I needed to add a gallon to replenish the system. However, that assumes the block was still full of anitifreeze... well until I started the engine with the wrong gasket. So when I poured a gallon into the heat exchanger and started the engine it circulated through the manifolds and block, so the heat exchanger looked empty, but the system just needed another gallon or so added. The combination of seeing antifreeze in the exhaust and having the heat exchanger empty made me assumed it was exiting with the exhaust (which it wasn't).

Thanks again for all your help.

changeofpace · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:52 am Post subject:

Glad you got it figured out. Now all we need is for the weather to be nice so we can all go out and catch a few fish Smile

leokow · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject:

Hello there Shawn, really sorry I wasn't around when you were having this problem, it wouldn't have been any problem to come over for a few minutes to help you out.
The next time you want to do some replacing of parts, and there are quite a few of them you can save yourself a lot of agravation and doubt about wether you put something back in the right place or not if you would take a couple of pictures with your digital camera of whatever you going to do ,wires, hoses,etc.Then you could load them onto your computer and see what the original connections looked like, even blow them up if you need too. Just a tip to try to make things easier on you,until you become so familiar with those engines that you can put them together with your eyes closed. C You later......Leo

shawn_carlson · Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:22 am Post subject:

Leo,

I agree with you 100%. Normally I am very careful when taking things apart so that I can easily retrace my steps. However, on this occasion I had some assitiance (with the best of intentions of coarse), but my father's approach is a little different than mine. However, it worked out in the end.

Also, I put the rebuilt carb on this weekend and got a short trip in before the rain came on Sunday. Everything runs great.

leokow · Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:

That's great, Shawn, now lets see if we can get thru the season with the only worry being where to catch fish !!

rebait · Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject:

Shawn,

Leo has the right idea. I fired the Wahoo up on Sunday and it sounded GREAT. I would have had the bottom painted, but the rain came. Hoping to get home early enough to do it during the week and if all goes right, drop it in Sunday. The latest I ever been, not including last year. I will be happy to have it in by the start of my vacation, June 30. Work is killing my fishing time, but this is helping my pension and 401k.

John

shawn_carlson · Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:18 am Post subject:

Took the boat out yesterday. runs great.. hopefully it will stay that way. Its been a few years in the making, so it was nice to finally hear things running they way they should.

Beautiful day on the bay, but not much the way of catching. Few shorts, lots of sharks and skates, 0 for the cooler. No complaints.

rebait · Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject:

Sounds like a great day.

John

leokow · Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject:

Hey John, how are you doing ? I was just going thru the site and I saw where you were going to put the wahoo in, did you ever get it in and if you did how did it run ? Or are you still being monopolized at work, God knows after what happened to the stock market your 401 could surely use the help !

rebait · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject:

Leo,

Still stuck at work, but the light for retirement is brighter. This is where the OT counts on the pension and 401k. As I posted a few forums back, it looks like the launch date is Sunday. As to the 401k and the stock market, a couple years ago when the papers reported that our company officers where selling their stock, ( the same time as the merger/acquisition that failed, thank God) I moved most of mine from stocks to the stable fund before any of the stocks fell, against the advice of the financial experts. I left 10% in our company stock. It split, pays a dividend and was recently rated as a stock to buy. When the market is starting an upswing, I may consider investing part of it in stocks. Judging by the water problems a lot of people are having with this etanol fuel, maybe I should invest in Startron or E Zorb.

John

leokow · Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject:

That was real good move with the stocks and the 401K, John,because right now I think you would be a little upset the way things are going.
Had some friends that fished great bay all last weekend but they only got 2 keepers. I hope to get some fishing in during the next couple of weeks, I just got out of the Hosp. AGAIN today,spent the last 4 days in there and I'm glad to be out. I hope to be back on the islands by this WED. Take it easy , I don't think you're missing anything out there,so you might as well get the boat done.

rebait · Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject:

Leo,

I am on vacation starting July 21. Then it is every other week until Labor Day. I am going to try to get the week before Labor Day. That will make 3 weeks in August. On 1 hand I wish that we were not this busy and on the other hand I am glad that we are. It is better to have more work than look around for something to do, especially with this economy.

John

leokow · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject:

John, how much longer before you retire ? It sounds like you are getting close. Like you , I was always happier when there was a lot of work around , I never liked it when I had to spend more time looking for something to do than it took to do it. If the weather stays like it has been so far ,you are going to have some nice vacation weeks. Talk to you later ..Leo

rebait · Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject:

Leo,

I could go now, but the read outs and calculations between my Company pension and my 401K indicate that the best pay out (not figuring OT) would be 2012. The OT boots my pension and 401K.

John

leokow · Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject:

Hey John, that sounds to me like you've got it worked out real well. I have to tell you , though, that 2012 date made me nervous ! I just finished watching a show on the History channel and it was about the Mayan civilization in Belize, and it showed one of their calendars. I know you're not going to want to hear this but they end their calendar in the year 2012, supposedly the end of the world.
Only thing we have going for us is we've been thru this end of the world stuff about a dozen times now,so..so much for that.
Have a good weekend....Leo

rebait · Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

Leo, I don't "Belize" it will happen,at least hope not. They made that date because they knew back then that I will be retiring then. It was phophisized (Ihope that is how it is spelled). I think back and I laugh about all the guys that I worked with that thought our operation would cease when they left. No matter how good you are there is always someone to replace you.

John