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Best method for Veneer

 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Best method for Veneer Reply with quote

OK, I bought some Mahogany veneer for redoing the walls in my boat. I figured the best way was to glue it up in place on the boat, that is make a template and cut the veneer out and hang it with either contact cement or the new iron on glue. In discussions I had last night with a contrater friend, he said that I should since the veneer is 1/32, attach it to a 1/4 or smaller piece of plywood, then attach the plywood to the existing walls. He said that this way, much greater chance of having good results without any bubbles. I felt that applying the veneer directly to the existing wall would be easier until we started talking about the paint on the wall and whether or not it will lift with the veneer glue.
So, I'm gonna throw this out there and see what all of you woodworking guys do when you veneer things.
Any input??
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar issue and yes the contact cement did lift the paint, what a mess! So the answer was to get some paint remover and remove the paint down to the wood. A little sanding with 80 grit to rough things up clean well and use a tack cloth just before you use the contact cement to get the last of the fine dust off. Hardest part from there on was getting the veneer centered as trimming would be difficult. Once the veneer is in place start in the center and roll with a solid hard roller to the outside - be sure to get all the air out and get a good adhesion - Been great for eight years so far -

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Mike, Just you for an answer. Leo emailed me with his experiences and I think the best thing would be to make my template and cut out a 1/4 in plywood sheet to fit the wall, then glue the veneer to the plywood, then hang the plywood with veneer to the existing wall.
Terry
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good to me! How are you going to make sure that the new 14" plywood is going to stay in place - thru all the pounding and flexing a boat takes?

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at the boat today checking things out and the biggest wall is the wall that also makes up the head wall. I can attach the veneer covered plywood to this wall with both glue and finishing nails. I have a staple gun that shoots very small nails. The outside edge is covered with corner molding whcih covers the nails and screws currently holding the wall together with the center wall of the head. The top can be nailed also because there is a wood strip which is screwed into the fiberglass ceiling. The headliner is stapled to this strip and will cover any nails as long as they are near the top. I took this piece of wood out today and the wall moves easily. The bottom of the wall is attached under the built-in couch, so any nailing will be hidden until the couch is opened to access the storage underneath. I thought about just removing the whole wall today and doing eveything in my garage, but the inside of the head has the shower attached to the other side of the wall and the shower surrond and trim for the vanity is attached to the wall. I didnt want to get into ripping out the whole thing just to fix the outside wall.
Since the wall does not go all the way to the side of the boat, it will be possible to make a wood cross (an X) that can be clamped on 2 sides and nailed at the other 2 corners. With small nails holdingin the middle, This should place anough clamping pressure to let the glue do its thing. Once dry, the small nail holes shouldnt be noticeable after light sanding and sealing with a clear urethane. Since I had real good results with Gorilla glue when I re-did the wood around the windows with starboard, I'm gonna use it again for the new veneered wall.
I havent decided yet about the 2 back walls since one of them has a window in it. I was going to do both of them with the mahogany also, but just might decide to leave them white and use the veneer on the wall by the galley.
I'm trying to picture it in my mind. As you enter the boat from the fantail, coming down the stairs, you see the one wall on the port side by the couch as mahogany, the window on the left and the storage area underneath are white starboard with Teak trim. The window on the starboard side also has the white starboard and Teak trim. Looking forward, then will be the galley, which is white with Teak trim and the front wall will be Mahogany with Teak trim. The center wall for the head right now is unstained plywood, which someone put a clear coating on.
If I dont veneer the back wall, I dont think it will matter since one of the walls has a windows with curtains and I plan on putting the new battery monitor and magazine rack there.
The LCD TV is mounted on the front wall above the galley sink. I wasnt going to redo that wall, but think it will look nice as you enter the boat.
What do you think?
Oh yeah, No problems with the battery banks, they're staying fully charged.
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leokow
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good job on the batteries , Terry, and as far as gluing the panels to the wall , loctite has a new construction adhesive that comes in a tube and doesn't require lifting the glued panel to let the adhesive flash off. The name of it is "Power Grab". I used it in the kitchen and it works real well. I think I picked it up at Lowes, it comes in a caulking tube , just like the regular panel adhesive. One thing , though, the point Mike brought up, you can't stick to paint, even if it does hold in the beginning as soon as some stress from the boat movement puts any pull on it , it may pull the paint off the plywood. You really have to get that paint off of wherever you are going to use the adhesive, the way Mike suggested sounds the easiest, a little paint stripper and then some 80 grit sanding should do the trick. I made a symbol that looks like an asterisk on the back of the panel with the glue and it held real well , you can reposition it for a short time , then it really grabs. Your pressure "X" sounds like it would work real good with this stuff. It's a blue and red tube with the words loctite around the top and Power Grab running vertically up the tube.Talk to you Later...Leo
PS... The new formica that I was waiting for to replace the damaged stuff came in yesterday, waited 10 days for it, turns out it wasn't damage caused by the way they shipped it. It 's a manufacturing defect ,the new stuff was just as bad as what I returned, totally unusable. I can't wait 10 more days to get some other patern from them so we decided on ceramic tile between the cabinets and I just ordered a new laminate for the tops themselves.At least now I can begin to put the cabinets up, it's getting to close to boat time to be fooling with this danged kitchen and powder room.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo and Mike, Can I just clean off the area where I'm going to glue? Since I can use my staple nails to hold the top, outside and bottom edges, the only areas where it might move would be the middle of the wall. I think I can get 3 clamps on the new wall to hold the bracing until the glue dries. If I only need to glue the middle of the wall, then I can probably just clamp the corner near the windows and then the bottom outside and just use 1 board to spread the clamping force across the face of the wall.
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry -

The brad nailer sounds good just remember to use Stainless or monel nails or you will get rust stains eventually - I know I tried it and have regreted it since - I stupidly thought that small painted panelling nails would not rust - Oh well lesson's learned!

Mike -
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I made a similar mistake on my house, looked good for a while, then rust lines running down from each nail hole!
My solution for that was to hire a contractor who put vinyl siding on the house.
With the weather being this cold, I'll have to wait to put up the veneer.
I had some of the molding fall off even though I had the heat on in the boat when I glued and clamped it. It held for a few days and then just fell off the starboard.
No problem, I'll just have to do that when she floating and use some of the fishing time Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like we all made that mistake with the steel fasteners, at least we are consistant !LOL. Yes Terry, you can just remove the paint from wherever you are going to glue and it should work just fine. I definitely would wait till it warms up , though. Talk to you later...Leo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo, How the kitchen going? I'm going to send you the check for the helm and the wiring schematics I promised you to the address you sent me last year tomorrow.
I took my friend Steves advice and will make the template out of 1/4 plywood since paper bends too easily. We will test fit the plywood before the veneer is put on. I have to think things through about the 2 back walls, might just leave them white.
There is a 28 ft Pacemaker of 1972 vintage on ebay Item number: 320078338836. No engines, but she doesnt look too bad of shape, its currently going for less than $1000, kind of looks like the Overdue. Its located in Salem NJ
Terry
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds like you'll do OK on the veneer job, don't forget to remember to wait until the temps warm up a little or you'll have problems. The kitchen is at a standstill for 2 weeks, my own fault. First I got damaged formica that was re ordered and I had to wait 2 weeks for the new stuff to come in. You think that for the kind of money it cost that the distributor would have at least taken a look at the problem before sending out a new order, as if you haven't already guessed,the second order was as bad as the first , somewhere in the lamination process there must have been a couple of gummed up rollers or something because all the mica had the same defects even the 4x8 sheets they had in store stock and 20 preformed tops that they also had in stock. Until I pointed out my defects no one noticed anything, once it was pointed out they all could see it. Anyway we decided to put ceramic tile between the upper cabinets and the top so I could at least get started on hanging the cabinets. When I went to get the corner cabinet to start it wasn't there. I usually check out every load and mark the cabinets against my list and this time I didn't do it. they said 18 pieces and we counted 18 , so I assumed everything was there. Long story short , they left off the corner cabinet and counted two fillers as the 18th piece, so I had to re order the corner cabinet and now it's going to take another 2 weeks before it comes in. I have never had so much trouble with a remodeling job as this one, naturally it's my own house, so I should have expected it.
I went down to the boat this weekend, no hurry about doing anything down there , it's iced in solid except for where the bubblers are and it's fairly thick too, the kids across the lagoon were playing ice hockey on it.
Looks like it may be 6 to 9 inches thick, first time in 3 years that it's frozen over that solid, and the paper had pictures of about 1/2 dozen guys down on the Mullica river drilling holes for ice fishing. I went down to the marina and it's frozen in too, except for the gas docks where they have bubblers. Everytime we have a winter like this the season starts a couple of weeks later than usual. I guess my demolition of overdue will slip till the end of March instead of the beginning, so much for well laid plans. I'll just have to stop planning and take things one day at a time. It's as though someone upstairs waits for me to plan something then laughs when my plan falls apart. It's no big deal , it will actually take a little pressure off of me , since I have the tendency to to load myself up with more than I can handle and then I get bent out of shape when something goes wrong and delays me. Ok , Terry, I'll get back to you later, take it easy .....Leo
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Rob
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is it possible to cut out the 1/4 plywood, get it to fit how you want it to, use it as a template for the veneer, attach the plywood to the existing walls with ss or monel fasteners and then glue the veneer to the plywood so that there are no fasteners showing and you don't have to cover with molding? Just a thought.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same thought and am still thinking about it. I'm worried since my veneer is thin, the fasteners will show through when the veneer is put on.
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Rob
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that this would be an issue, but I was also wondering if the veneer and plywood expand and contract at different temps and your fasteners are close to the edge if the veneer might crack. I'm not sure that would be an issue as long as you use enough glue on the veneer. I don't know, just a thought.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not use plywood unless the wood was crap then install the plywood use 3/4 nails with a nail gun rust,,,, not in our life time unless yours leaks then fix that first then use bondo to make smooth and fill in the edges then install the veneer.

one other thing when you install the veneer use a paper backed veneer after install you have to put a sealer on the veneer as soon as you put it up make sure you have big space heater to dry the wood if you need to, and you wil.l a big kerosene blower heater, mine is 55000 btu nd when your done come back withen 12 hours to see if it has lifted turn the heat on and press it back down it will be ok if you keep dry till it sets a hair dryer might be usefull so bring one

http://web.mac.com/tanyard/iWeb/Site%206/bedroom_files/CIMG0112.jpg
to see more pice got www.pacmeakerboat.com then working on the inside then bed room
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Rob
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, you don't think that just the salt air alone is enough to cause the nails to rust?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not think so the nails will be covered with wood they won't get any air to then but if your worred then try to find some stainless or brass nails or use a little 5200 behind to help hold the wood incase the nails give way
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rob -

I have lived near the ocean most of my adult life and there is no way some of my things would every come in contact with salt water but most definately salt air - You actually have to hose lawn furniture down with fresh water to get the salt off - Boats are in the salt water and used during the hot humid months the combination of the humid air and the salt does and has rusted most any thing that is not stainless steel. The constant heating up and cooling of a closed boat causes the humidity to rise and settle on anything that is cooler than the air that combined with the salt air causes rust -

What I was referring to in this post was I made the mistake of using some painted panneling brads made from plain steel and painted the color of the paneling, I am sure you know the ones I am talking about - They are inside the boat where no salt water could every get to them, Not only did they rust and leave stains a couple have rusted completely in two, after all they are only brads. I have since redone the paneling and did not use any nails where they could be seen and they where stainless.

Ok lesson learned and hope to pass it on - When you learn from the school of hard knocks - you don't want anyone else going thru it!

Mike - Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in Nashville Tennessee NO SALT AIR but I don't think it would be the same as installing paneling because your wood will be sealed all sides, paneling is very dry and will air in. Not like plywood with a veneer over it. But like said before I would strip the paint first, you don't have to get every drop of paint or use a water based contact cement, there very good but you miss the free high LOL, and install the my veneer to the old wood, if it's a little rough then use a little bondo first not put plywood over it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike (merwin10)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your welcome
www.pacemakerboat.com
http://web.mac.com/tanyard/iWeb/Site%206/bedroom.html
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