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WHAT HAPPENED???

 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:02 pm    Post subject: WHAT HAPPENED??? Reply with quote

2 battery banks made up of Optima D34M batteries (2 batteries each bank hooked together) running fine since last July, always had 12 volts, now today bank one is only putting out 5 volts. Switched banks on charger and no difference, only 5 volts. If I shut the charger off, volt meter drops tp 3 volts I pulled the batteries and unhooked the power wires till I can figure out what killed bank 1. Nothing in the boat was left on, never had any dim lights or anything since boat came out of the water in Oct. The weather isnt cold enough to have killed them, so What Happened???
Anybody ever had this happen to them before??
Batteries have an 18 month exchange for free so no problem getting new ones, just has me baffled.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First how do you know everything was off on the boat - If you are going to say you shut the battery switches off hence everything has to be off WRONG! the only way to be sure everything is off is disconnecting the battery. Several circuits such as blidge pumps and instrument & engine computers has keep alive voltage. They are connected no matter what you switch the battery switch too.

ALSO

Many times batteries get a shorted cell. That shorted cell will draw all the batteries down that are connected to the shorted battery! Simple if you can get new ones get them.

There is nothing you can do about shorted cell. How do you know one cell is shorted? One easy way is to but the battery one at a time on the charger after about 20 minutes feel along the outside of the battery - all cell should feel the same temperature the shorted one is hoter than the other cells. The technical way to find out is to charge the batteries up - Keep in mind that optima batteries have a particular charge sequence. Once charge to capacity then have a load test done, that will tell you how fit the battery is.

What causes the cell to short out is the chemical reaction of the battery as the battery is used deposites collect on the bottom in a flakey form. as the flakes build up they touch the plates shorting them out. The flakes tend to gavitate towards the aft of each cell on boats, due to the planing action of the boat.

Hope this helps -

Mike -
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Mike. I didnt have the batteries disconnected until today. I had them sitting like they were since the end of October. No problem with either bank until today. Battery switch was on in Bank 1 position, Bank 2 still has 12 volts since battery switch in effect disconnected it from the rest of the system. Both engines get their power from Bank 1 full time since I pulled a bad selector switch. The main selector switch being in bank 1 on position meant boats dc system was charged. No lights or other 12 volts systems were "turned" on, but yes the bilge pump was alive. I shut off the 12 volt main circuit breaker when I leave the boat and when I go down and work on it plug in the shore power and start the charger as well as firing up the dc system for lights.
The batteries have been on the charger in my garage since 4pm and still are not charging, still 5 volts. So I either have a slow drain on the dc power system, which drained the batteries from the pump or engine electrical system (slow spinning port motor problem last fall remember!) or a bad set of batteries.
Since I had the slow spinning port motor during winterizing, I am going to check there first. The thing that bugs me the most isnt the batteries being dead since they have an 18 month warrenty is that I had moved on to setting up the rest of the boat and was looking forward to improving the electronics and now I have to go back and troubleshoot the 12 volt system again.
I am going to get a new amp gage and test each circuit for power drain, hopefully I'll find a crossed wire or bad connector somewhere and thats all
its also possible the exhaust blower is the bad boy since it would not come on from the bridge switch. I spent the time in the water last year without an exhaust blower. I would open the windows and hatches to vent before starting
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have had the batteries on the charger and disconnected and they are still 5 volts you definately have a bad battery as there is nothing attached to the battery. The battery in question has a internal short. Check the sides of the battery with your hand feel for a hot cell while charging. Actually sounds like a couple of shorted cells. since all you are getting up to is 5 volts. On a 12 volt battery the cells are internally wire in series to get the 12 volts that means the 12 volts is divide by the number of cells, normally 6 cells at about 2.3 volts each for the 13.8 volts full charge rate.

Another thought but sort of not wanting to mention it are you sure you have the charger on 12 volts some chargers have both 12 and 6 volts.

One of the issues you run into with Optima batteries is that they have a different charge sequence than most wet cell batteries. It is spelled out in the owners manual.

Battery Charger:13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours approximate
(Constant Voltage)

Float Charge::13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum current (indefinite time at lower voltages)

Rapid Recharge::Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 50°C (125°F). Charge until current drops below 1 amp.
(Constant voltage charger)

All limits must be strictly adhered to.

One of the issues here is although Optima batteries are sealed and non-refillable they do vent gases. If the battery is charged incorrectly it will over heat and the vent will open and let gases out. Over time if enough gas excapes the electrolyte will be depleted. meaning the plates will no long be submerged in battery acid. So it is VERY important that you charge the batteries according to the specifications.

Hope this helps -

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I kind of figured there is a problem with the batteries since they are home and still not charging. I had a problem with my battery charger not sensing the batteries were fully charged so the charger kept blinking that it was charging and not going into shut down mode. There was talk about a month ago at the club about someone leaving their battery charger on and the smell of a cooking battery was how they found it. Never found out whose boat it was, wonder if it was mine, would have thought I would have been told if it was mine though.
I had the battery charger tested and it worked fine, I also tested the batteries with my home battery charger the same one I'm using right now and the charge gage never goes below 4 in 6 amp or 2 amp charge mode.
In the initial testing it did the same thing but the batteries read 13.5 volts or fully charged. Thinking about yesterday, my meter on the boat was only reading 12 volts, not the 13.5 it should have.
You once told me you didnt like isolators but I cant remember the reason why. I have a 2 alt, 2 battery isolator in the system which is supposed to seperate the batteries but send the charge to either bank from the alternators. I didnt have my battery charger hooked through this but it is a common link between the batteries.
My biggest concern is that there is a drain somewhere that will kill the banks when I'm out with my son for the night. I was stuck with my buddy on his boat last year when that happened and we were totally dead in the water for the night, no lights or nothing. His batteries were so dead, the emergency jump starter could start the engines. His problem was bad grounds in the anchor windlass.
Do you think having bad grounds could drain my batteries?
Terry
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Isolator is nothing but a set of diodes - There is a reverse bias leakage in all diodes but it not enough to worry about for a 12 volt system, it is usually measured in micro-volts (millionth of a volt). As for what I was telling you before why I did not like isolators is tha all diodes have a .7 volt drop in the forward (conducting direction). This means tha if you see 13.5 volts on the charger side you will see 12.8 volts on the other side of the diode. Depending on how the diode bridge is set up it could be even greater than .7 volts. How does this effect the battery? Well depending on the way the charging system is set up yo could cook one battery and not fully charge the other. If the sensing line is on the other side of the diode the 12.8 volts, the charger will think the battery needs charging. Most chargers don't separate bank senses it just charges all banks to the lowers one. Since on bank will never see 13.8 volts the charger will continue to over charge the other banks until it gets the 12.8 bank to 13.8 volts , which will never happen due to the diode isolator .7 volt drop. Hope this explains it well enough!

The better charging system uses sensing combiners the charger is on one side and the battery on the other. when the sense circuit sees less than 12.5 volts it tell a relay to close, making the connection between the chargeer and the battery. when the battery reaches 13.8 volts the sense circuit tell the relay to open, disconnecting the battery and the charge circuit.

You need to be careful with this as if you hook in the alternator into the combiner it is possibile for the combiners to open, disconnect. When there is no load on some alternators they tend to burn up! That is why the alternator is always connected to the engine battery directly so that there is always a load.

With the combiner circuit there are some loses also but they are in the millionth of a volt - usually called contact resistance. Whenever you have a connection of any kind you have three electriacal parameters that happen there is some resistance, some capacitance and some inductance. That is why you always hear "make sure all connections are clean and tight including crimp connections." This keeps these parameters as ow as possible.

Hope this helps explain the isolator situation.

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I followed the Arco suggested setup for the alternators i got (3 wire) with the sense wire (red) going to the battery, excite wire (purple) going to the ignition and the Positive lug hooked to the isolator. I borrowed my neighbors digital meter for checking the boat tonight if the weather isnt bad, I checked the 2 batteries i got home and they are reading 13.5 volts with his meter. My battery charger at home is old so the gage must be bad in it. The meter on the boat is new and I know the batteries were run down because the lights were dim. There is a possibility that something shorted out and drained the bank. I went down last night and turned the keys to the run position and the stbd oil pressure gage pegged out to the max. time for more testing Sad Sad
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry that is great oil pressure! Only kid'n! Sounds like something shorted.
Might want to start with the battery and put a amp meter - Large one like 30 amps or more. between the positive terminal of the battery and the battery lead. Turn stuff on and off one at a time to see what circuit is shorted. Probable corrosion again! Good news is the batterues sound like they are holding a charge after sitting for 24 hours if they are still 13.5 volts I would say your out of the woods with the batteries. FInding a short can be frustrating - Want to feel good keep track of your hours to find and fix the problem then multiple that by your local labor rate. You saved yourself big $$$.

Always keep in mind whenever you repair your own boat you are learning more about it and becoming a safer boater as a result!

Mike - Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you fix your own boat, after you pull all of your hair out tracking down every little problem, all thats left is knowledge, the knowledge that you can handle anything going wrong with any system in an emergengy, kind of like being certified on boats when I was in the Navy.
Like I said, This happened because I was looking at spending some money on newer electronics. I still dont feel too good about the charger I got and put in because it never seems to sense a full charge. I called the manufacturer and they claimed that was because I have 2 batteries hooked together in each bank making 1 big battery for each bank. They claimed that the charger can only charge 2 batteries at a time and I was trying to charge 4 batteries ( I guess the idea of battery banks was a little confusing to support guy on the phone). He could not explain to me what the difference was between 1 battery or a series of batteries hooked together in parellel was. If I hook the batteries up pos to pos and neg to neg, then hook the leads from the charger to the pos on one and the neg on the other, its still one big battery to the charger. I changed it around so that one of the batteries in each bank had both of the leads from the charger hooked to it. Could that have caused the charger to only charge 1 battery to full strenght and the other wasnt getting fully charged? That could explain why they went dead as the lower charged battery would draw the fully charged battery down correct?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well yes and no or that is a definate maybe!!!!! Here is the situation most of the battery chargers can NOT tell if there is one or more batteries in a bank, some of the newer ones can. Yes if there is more than one battery the one with the highest charge will float to the level of one at a lesser charge. Likewise if one of the batteries in a bank has a shorted cell it will bring the others to its level, discharging all the batteries in the bank. You will know when this is happening because you will have a hot cell gasing, of course this is hard to tell on a sealed battery like the Optimas.

That said usually if there is a battery bank with more than one battery and you have a sense wire it should be on the battery furthest in the bank, last battery, positive terminal with the charger wire on the first battery in the banks positive terminal. Don't know if you ever watch a low battery charge before but the cell closes to the positive terminal bubbles first and the one closes to the negative bubbles last. If you had three batteries tied together for 18 cells the further battery cell 6 closest to the negative terminal will bubble last.

I know this is a long answer for a simple question, YES a low battery in a bank of batteries would draw the rest down.

Terry tell me how your battery banks/alternators/chargers are set up?

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Mike I got 4 Optima D34M deep cell batteries mounted in 2 troll fury cases, 2 batteries each. The batteries are hooked positive to positive and negative to negative in each bank. The battery selector switch taps off of one of the positive posts of each bank with the main positive from the switch feeding the boats dc system. The negative from each battery bank is tied into the engine ground on head with a ground wire connecting them together. I have also tied this ground to the DC main bus with the AC ground bus creating one big common ground. I need to add a selector switch for the engine starting batteries since right now I can only start them from bank 1. My charger is a merchant marine 20 amp (10 amp per bank) charger mounted next to my ac/dc panels. The charger has 2 wires for each bank, pos and neg. I had them hooked up with the pos on one battrey and the neg on the other in each bank, but switched them when the charger did not sense full charge and shut off ( during the time in the water, I had a timer on the boat so there wouldnt be any over charge of the batteries.
With the isolator, the wiring was suggested by Arco marine for the 3-wire alternators as red wire for battery sense went to each battery bank, the purple wire went to ignition and the pos output from the alt went to the isolator. (The arco guy said I didnt need the red wire to the battery since the isolator if effect told the alternator to start charging. The wire from the isolater to the alternator was doing the same job).
Like I said, I am missing the switch to change over the starting battery.
The lights, bilge pump, blower, etc power supply all come from the dc panel which is fed through the selector switch, whci has been in the number one bank since the boat came out of the water. During the summer, I ran the boat power from bank 2 since the engines are on bank 1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Ok, in real life, my batteries are mounted between the engines instead of where they are in the above drawing (modified from Mikes electrical PDF)
positive wires are red, negative wires are black, this hopefully gives a better idea of what I am trying to describe
Terry
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is going to be long I hope you can follow it -

Ok I see a couple of issues for the best results - The two troll fury battery banks are your house batteries Yes! The starter batteries are separate even though you now only have one. there are a few minor issues with the grounding. Fist the starter battery grounds should be block grounded as close to the starter as possible on both engines. There needs to be yet another ground 4 gauge wire that connects the engines together terminates at the same place as the starter battery ground is on both engines. Next is the trollfurys ground should not be connected to the head connect it to the same ground as the starter batteries. Heads heat up more than other parts of the engine and bolts tend to come loose further more the head uses a gasket and some of the head bolts either will have locktite or sealer on the threads if they go into the water jackets. The negative buses for the dc system should come from the same terminal connections on the engines both to the negative dc buss. Use 4 gauge again minimum, might seem like over kill but remember we need to compensate for temperature. The ground for the charger is best on the battery bank it is charging.

Ok now the positive side of things the positive side of each troll fury need to be fused at the battery like 100amps or better then to the switch from the switch to the positive buss. The switches should be separate for each troll fury either totally separate or a 1 - 2 - both - off switch. A terminal fuse block should be at the troll fury to hard wire mandatory circuits, like keep alive circuits, and bilge pumps. Bilge pumps are never switched just in case you forget and shut the switch off and the boat develops a leak. The hot wire for the bilge pump goes to the float switch. Each mandatory circuit needs to be fused at the troll fury battery separately. The fuses protect the wire from shorts as it makes its run to the pump. If you wired it directly to the troll fury and fused it at the pump the wire could short out before the fuse and cause a fire, so we always fuse at the source. Likewise with the positive main feed, if you fuse it at the panel it could short out prior to the fuse and cause a fire.

Alright now for the charger the charger lead goes to the battery leads not the isolator. The isolator has a .7 volt voltage drop so you will never achieve full charge. Like I said I don't like isolators for this reason. Battery combiners are better solutions as they don't have a voltage drop. Depending on the use of the combiner you could set it up between the troll fury's positive and the starter batteries positive leads take the high sense line and tie it to the positive lead same place as the charger positive lead on the starter battery. What this will do is when the charger is charging and achieves anything above 13 volts the sense line will close the relay effectively connecting the troll fury's and the starter batteries together and charge both at the same time. When the voltage drops below 13 volts (not being charged) the relay opens (effectively disconnecting the troll fury's). What this means is if the electronics is tied to the troll fury it will not see the starting spike as it will no be connected until after the engine starts.

Now for the alternators they seem to be hook up right with the large hot lead attached to the upper large post positive post on the start solenoid. This assures that there is a load when ever the engine is running. Sense lines should be on each starter battery positive terminals. Now for the house batteries charge while underway as soon as the engine alternator develops over 13 volts the combiners will close and charge both the starter and troll fury's.

The only thing left is the starter battery manual switch and the parallel switch to tie the starter batteries together. The on off switches effectively cuts the starting battery from the engine. The charger will still charge because the charger lead bypasses the switch and goes directly to the positive lead on the starter battery. Now you might want to install a parallel switch to parallel the starter batteries for hard starts. This is a high ampage relay 200 amps or better that ties the two starter batteries together with 4 gauge wire. A control switch is on the bridge. If you have a low battery or a hard starting engine you can hit the momentary parallel switch and the relay will close and connect the starter batteries together to give you more amps.

Now if you buy large enough combiners 200 amps or better. There is yet one other control wire you could use it is a manual override. It goes to yet another momentary switch that will close the relay in the combiner effectively connecting the starter battery and the troll fury batteries together. REMEMBER THIS WILL SPIKE YOUR ELECRONICS - so all electronic devices must be turn off before you do this.


Well that about does it -

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, The picture isnt exact as I modified the one in your electrical file. My engines do have the connecting ground wire ( I added it after you posted that file) and they are connected in the same place as both of the battery banks, which is the bolt on the rear of the head 2 inches from the top of the starter housing, as my starters are top mounted on the bell housing. The picture had a line covered over I didnt catch and the dc negative bus is connected to the main dc negative bus. The dc negative bus is also grounded to the same bolt as the battery banks and engines with a 4awg ground wire. That means the engines, battery banks, and dc system are all conected to the same grounding spot which in my case is the dc main negative bus by a 4 awg wire, This is connected to the grounding tube mounted along the outside keel via the grounding lug in my bilge (original green wire with yellow stripe) I also have the fuel tanks grounded to the dc main negative bus as well as another negative bus where the blower, bilge pumps and horn are connected. The horn and blower are protected at the dc panel by circuit breaker, The bilge pumps have the fuse at the pump so I'll move them.
The battery charger is only hooked to each battery bank and nothing else. There are only the 2 banks of troll fury cases, each containing 2 Optima D34M deep cycle batteries no starting battery bank. Optima states these can be used as starting batteries as long as there is enough amperage. With 2 batteries hooked in parallel, that give me about 1500 amps per bank, more than enough for starting the engines, and if needed house power. Run time on the Troll fury is about 240 minutes at 12 volts.
I know I needed to add the switch and a disconnect or breaker at the pos lug on each bank since I read your file.
So...
I need to add the fusable links at the battery banks, move the fuses on the bilge pumps, add the selector switch to change battery banks for starting the engines.
The alternators are wired through the isolators to the positive battery lug via the starter pos lug with the big post, the purple wire to ign and the small red wire to battery pos for sensing battery voltage is correct and needs no changes


Last edited by changeofpace on Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you have the negative DC side taken care of - Yes! everything metal needs to be grounded Good job on the fuel tanks that is VERY IMPORTANT.

OK so you only have two banks each a trollfury. That presents a litle problem and can be over come with your memory! Shut off all electronics before you start the engines. This will avoid the spiking issue.

I guess I am a little confused on the isolator. You have two alternators two outputs on the battery charger. The only time that the troll fury's would be connected together is if you went to both on your battery switch or you used the parallel switch. So what is the isolator for? The only other place is on the positive DC buss but I assume that one bank supplies power for some things and the other supplies power for different things, meaning that the troll fury's share the DC load. Only when both batteries supply power to the same things would there be a connection between the troll fury's.

Yet another option is if you have both troll fury's positive leads going to a common positive DC Buss you will need a switch on them to disconnect one, so that only one troll fury at a time will supply power to the DC Buss. This means that you always will have a charged troll fury to start the engines if you ran one troll fury down by running DC equipment while on anchor. If you don't provide a switch both troll fury's will float to the same DC voltage and you may get stuck with not enough power to start the engines.

Boy this is getting complicated -

Mike - Rolling Eyes

Most chargers have diodes in the last stage of the charger to prevent any crossover at the charger. Only if the diode shorted would they be connected. Diodes usually don't short they blow open, meaning no connection at all!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, The positive leads from the troll furys are hooked to the battery selector switch with the output from the selector switch running to the main dc positive. This allows me to switch the house current to either bank. The engine starting bank is ALWAYS bank 1, I have no way to change that with my current setup (never did like that, but I had problems with the switch that was there and figured I would put in a new one in the spring)
The isolator is inline with the two alternators and is used to allow either alternator to charge either or both banks of batteries.
This is setup so that the big red wire from the alternator going to the starter lug passes through the isolater as shown in the picture. If one of the alternators fails, the remaining alternator will charge both banks of batteries.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention about the charger. I put the meter between it and the battery bank to measure the output voltage and its only 12 volts, should be more than that to fully charge the batteries!!!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broke it down into the 2 dc circuits, house and starting. I think I got everything needed now right Mike?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plan looks good, just for our education how about taking a reading on that isolator input from the alternators and out put from the isolator. They may be able to do the job of select either alternator to either battery without any voltage drop. If the sense line for the alternators is on the battery or on the back side of the isolator output the alternator will adjust its output to what ever is necessary to meet the 13.8 volts. Don't be surprized if you see 15 volts at the input side of the insolator. That just means the alternator is doing its job!

Yes the charger should be at least 13.5 volts at the batteries. However you need to be sure that the batteries are almost fully cahrged as the charger may be going into voltage limit mode meaning that it is at max current 20 amps. Once the charger is showing about 20% of max current it should be at full voltage output.

Don't know about your particular charger but on some chargers there is a voltage set resistor internally. How this works is once the battery is within 20%, or 4 amps, of max current, you put a meter on the battery and adlust the resistor for 13.5 to 13.8 volts. Why you do this at the battery is to assure that any loses are compensated for, ie diodes, wire and connections. This means that the charger will be at a higher output voltage at the charger. Take a look at the charger and see if there is any adjustment. By the way the older chargers that use a resistor to adjust the voltage should be checked at least twice during the season. As vibration, temperature and wear tend to change the adjustment.

NO, 12 volts from the charger will not bring the batteries up to full charge.

Hope this helps!

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try and remember to do that this spring since I cant run the engines now, its way too cold. I do have the sense line from the alternators going to the batteries since thats the way Arco marine suggested to do it. For everyones information, Isolators will NOT work on single wire alternators since the single wire alternators require voltage to start charging. If you have ever looked at the volt meter of a single wire alternator, you will notice that the alternator does not start putting out any voltage until you rev the engine. With the 3 wire alternators, the battery sense wire is hooked directly to the battery with another wire tied into the ignition and the third wire running through the isolator to the positive lead on the battery (this can be at the starter pos lug or pos terminal on the battery)
When I start one of my engines, I can see the alternator output shoots up over 14 volts and then drops back down within a minute or so as the alternator replaces the charge used to start the engine. This kind of setup is going to cause less wear and tear on the alternator.
My alternators are 70 amps each, so after being on the hook for a few hours with electrical systems running, I am usually almost fully charged by the time I get back to the dock.
One of the things about the dead batery bank that bugs me is being unsure whether its a new problem or a battery charger problem since this merchant marine charger never went into fully charge mode. It has blinking led displays to show charging, fully charged and bad batteries. It is supposed to stop blinking when the battery is fully charged. Mine would blink, slow down until it almost stopped and then start blinking repidly again. 'I decided that since I had the Coast Guard spec sheet and some time, I would pull the dc system apart. So since boats typically have 2 dc systems, house and starting, I broke it down into 2 sections. I will start with the starting circuit since to me thats the most important, then if no problems or amp drains showing up, move on to the house circuits.
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with three wire alternators! I feel that they are the best only because you can put the sense line at the battery and that forces the alternator to put out what every voltage that is needed to over come loses in the charger circuit.

Terry just take one circuit at a time and learn what is connect to what. You may find that the batteries are connected in some other remote circuit. One that comes to mind is the blidge pump circuit. As usually the float switch is tied to one battery and the manual switch could be tied to the other, House battery, from the DC panel. When the is water in the blidge the float switch will be up you come alone and throw the manual switch and walla you have a direct connection between batteries thru the float switch. If one battery is dicharged and the other is fully charge the current will flow to the discharged battery at a rate that could exceed the wire design load. Remember batteries that are hooked together will float to a common voltage, so the charged battery will try and charge the discharged battery. Hope that makes sense to you - I am NOT trying to concern you but trying to get you to thing of circuits that could cause issues in the future.

Hope this helps!

Mike - Rolling Eyes thinking!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I am going to start checking as soon as it warms up a little. I need to follow my schematic for the gage wiring to see if I can understand why the oil pressure gage is maxing out. It is the original gage, just the sender is new. I hope if I unhook the wires from it, I can see if its shorted.
I am going to disconnect everything and start over. I have to anyway since I need to add the fuse blocks for the main positive wires.
I wanted to ask your advice, I will be setting this up so that I will have 2 selector switches, one for the house circuit and one for the starting circuit.
These switches will be wired to the batteries using 4 awg wire. Can I get away with one fuse on each banks positive lead, in other words, have a small 4 awg wire feeding the fuse block and then have the 2 bank one leads from each switch on one fuse block and the 2 bank 2 leads from each switch on the other? if not, there will be a lot of wires coming off the positive terminals. If I can, is 300 amps enough?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok! what is your cold cranking amps? If 300 amps is what you are going to use it will take AWG 3-0 wire degraded for inside engine room use. That is calculated at 300 amps at 12 volts with 3 feet or less wire at 220 degrees F - Sounds like a little over kill, in my opinion, at most I would go with AWG #2. You will NOT find this in any West Marine- or Boat US made up you will have to go to a marine outfitter. Usually, they sell the wire separately and put the ends on it you request. It is the best way unless you have a hydraulic press to crimp the ends.

You might want to check out this site under technical data - there is a wire calculator and a temperature derating chart.

http://www.ancorproducts.com/

The big question here is what is the switch rated at, you don't want to be pulling 300amps thru a 100 amp switch - Be sure to leave enough safety margin for low voltage as 300amps at 12 volts is 3600 watts at 11 volts that is 327 amps and 360amps at 10 volts.

Yes it is ok to have as many wires as will fit on the other side of the switch - One note here is that you want a stainless steel star washers beween each connection so a bite is taken on each terminal in the sandwich. Another way is to use a high current dc buss bar - I usually spray the connection with no-corrode after it is tightened as the disimilar metals will cause corrosion in salt air.

Details details details is what will keep it working. This is why most of our boats are birds nest of wires noone takes the time to figure what is correct.

Hope this helps!

Mike -
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cca is 750, have to check the switch, but I think is 300 amps, not sure.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Let me give some more info to clear things up. The 13.5 volt readings I was getting from the batteries was with the charger on so I was reading the voltage from the charger, not the batteries. When each battery is tested after 20 minutes running a 12 volt light (thanks Leo) the reading from the batteries is 12.6 and 12,8 volts, which are full charge readings from the Optima people. So that means to me the batteries are not dead but in fact good. I checked the second bank last night which is sitting in the boat and they are also at 12.8 volts (though both batteries are still hooked parallel) I unhooked the battery charger and shut off all of the circuit breakers on the house circuit, then started by turning on the systems one by one while watching the amp gage, no amps showing. I then lifted the float switch on the forward bilge pump and saw the amp gage move, so I knew that is working. This seems to tell me the house circuit is ok. I then went and unhooked the house main feed line and started hooking up the starting positive and negative wires to the starting circuit, a small spark seen very clearly was observed when hooking up the positive wire. That tells me that I have a short somewhere in the starting circuit, am I close or just going the wrong way?
Terry
Mike the switch is a standard Guest selector switch rated at 350 amps, so the 300 amp fuse should be correct
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry, I don't know if it means you have a short in the engine circuit - It does however tell me that there is something on that circuit that is turned on or leaking - If there was a dead short in the circuit you would see a flash more than a spark. Perhaps one of the electronic circuits has a keep alive memory like a AM/FM radio - It would be interesting to see just how much current is being drawn - That would give us an idea of what to look for - Like you have heard me say before these old boats it could be anything - previous owners could have hooked anything up - Do you have fuel totalizers or elelctronic tachs? This could be anything from a small bulb to a couple LED's. Do you have electronic ignition? Just stabbing in the dark!!!!

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good thought Mike, I have Faria tachs with the digital hourmeters in them and electronic ignitions, I have to wait for this cold snap to leave and then get back to checking things out.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That could do it as the tachs have a memory, LED's, and backlighting could be drawing upto 1 amp. Normally nothing to worry about during normal opeation but in the winter with cold weather with long periods of no charging, will run the battery down!

Mike - Rolling Eyes thinking!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could also be the dc volt meter itself since it is always on the way I have it hooked up. I am going to change that also with a tester which will require me to to push a button to test the batteries, though that would not explain the small spark. I have to trace out the bilge pump and blower circuits to make sure they are not on the starter circuit. I dont believe they are since they both have a circuit breaker in the dc board.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: What Happened Reply with quote

Well, that was ceraintly a long and informative read, Thank you , gentlemen.
I haven't been on for a little while and was trying to catch up ,Terry, when we talked about this during one of our e-mails you told me that the tachs had hour meters on them and I said it shouldn't matter because they wouldn't be on unless the key was on. Well , I would be wrong, you left out that they were digital , that would change things a little, meaning that they would draw current. I agree with Mike completely that you don't have a direct short or you would see a flash when you hooked up the positive cable, the spark goes along the lines of what both of us have been saying, that something's on. The digital tach could definitely be part of it because of the memory, you checked out the bilge and that seems ok, that other meter that you have connected direct is probably adding to the problem, which as Mike has said wouldn't show up during the season, but over the winter with no re charge it becomes a problem. I think you could save yourself a lot of work if you just disconnect the things that you know are hooked up directly first and retry connecting the cable, I'd be almost willing to bet that most if not all of your problem is there. The hourmeters need power all the time for the memory ,but that little bit should never bother you when you are actively using the boat and other than the bilge pump everything else should be energized with the ignition on, I don't know if Mike would agree with that , but it's a lot cleaner and trouble free. When you turn that key off everything is off except for two things ,the memory ckts. and the bilge pump, it saves a lot of unecessary problems, and gives you peace of mind. Talk to you later...Leo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, thats why I ordered a new metering system. I will now have to push a button to see each banks charge. I had put the meter in because I wanted a better way to watch the dc system with the invertor since its not easy to see the invertors gage. I will rewire this gage so that its only on when the invertor is on and use the new system to monitor the rest. Should be pretty easy to put the gage in-line with the power line to the invertor from the circuit breaker so that when the circuit breaker is off, the gage is off.
I removed the old battery charger and put in the new dual pro charger and if I understand the manual, the batteries are 90% or better and its in tender mode. This charger, will show both red and green LED's when I first plug in the boat, within a minute, it goes to just the green LED. Watching with my amp meter, the chargers output goes from 13 volts, 10 amps, down to less than 1 amp. The owners manual states thats what its supposed to do if the batteries are fully charged. If the red LED stays on for more than 24 hours, then there is a problem with charger or batteries.
I tell you what, I was pretty happy with the battery bank that was in the boat the last week with the 0 degree weather we've had
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry -

Sounds like you have the DC circuit well in hand - One thing you need to do at home - Take the manuals for the optima batteries and the manual for the new battery cahrger sit down at the kitchen table and compare the charging methods - Optima has a specific method for charging and you wil void the warenty if you do not do it that way - at least that is what they say on their web site - Sorry if this information comes to late as you already purchased the new charger and installed it - Hopefully both the batteries and the charger are compatible. Shocked

Leo -

I hear you on the kitchen project - "no ticky no washy" Better get that kitchen back together quickly!

Mike - Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I bought this charger because it was the one suggested by the optima battery site! No more than 10 amps max per battery bank with the reduction in amperage as the banks reach full charge until 0.1amps is left to maintain the batteries. Yep, after the Merchant Marine charger problem, I went and asked where I bought the batteries what kind of charger was needed. They said at first, No Special charger was needed, then said max amps going in should be 10 amps and the amperage should reduce as the charge level goes up to prevent the venting of the electrolite. Even though the Optima batteries are sprial wound and can be mounted upside down, overchargeing them will vent out the electrolite and cause the batteries to fail. The Dual Pro charger is perfect for the Optima batteries, only drawback is the 10 amps. If both banks need charging, I can expect at least 10 hours of down time since only 5 amps will be going to each bank.
I forgot to mention what I observed when I changed out the chargers. When I was unhooking the old charger, the positive wire moved next to the positive post on the battery and there was a spark. I checked this again and saw the spark again. After I took the charger completely out, I went back and checked for spark from the starter circuit and there wasnt any. There also wasnt any spark from the house circuit either. So now I hooked up the new charger and the batteries are fully charged. When I go down to the boat, The first thing I do is go up and check my dc volt gage and its sitting around 12.6 - 8 volts everytime. I then throw the circuit breaker on for the charger and the meter goes up to 13+ plus volts and drops back down to 12.8. As soon as the meter reads 12.8, the red light on the charger goes out, indicating at least 90% charged. I never got this with the old charger, the LED's never went to full charge. always showed charging so I think most of my problem was the charger. Just to make sure, I went out and bought all new gages for each engine, so now everything on the bridge is new, oil pressure, water temperature and charge gages to go with the new tachs and toggle switches I got last year. Only thing I havent changed is the anchor light. I will get the new helm from Leo's old boat, I have the new electronic depth finder. Now I think with the new battery switch I got and the 300 amp fuse blocks for the starting circuiit, the only thing that could go wrong is a broken wire from the old wiring harness.
I hope the weather turns warm soon since I have to mount the swim platform, the admiral is getting upset about it being in the garage since I got it last spring and never put it on the boat. Partly because I was working on the bigger systems and partly because I wasnt sure how to mount it. I read the posts about how the brackets have to go on the other site, so thats on my todo list.
61 days till boating season here and I'm number 2 on the launch list. With a predicted high tide of 11:48 am on April 1st, I should be in the water by lunchtime on Sunday 4/01/07. That means I've got to get the boat ready, cause I'll launch even if its still in the 40's!!!
Terry
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Terry..Sounds like you're in business!!! I was just going to send you a message about the old charger and the sparl, but that's not necessary any longer. Man, it's nice when things work out the way they are supposed too. We have to find a way to get a message to all the members on this site, and if nothing else just get them to log in once a day or so . Maybe then we'll be able to get the numbers hi enough to keep this thing going. I can't think of any other way. Talk to you later...glad things worked out with the batteries and charger. Great idea about checking with optima before buying the charger...That's not normally the way things work out,it's about time we changed directions....Leo
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