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need some help with a velvet drive trans.

 
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leokow
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: need some help with a velvet drive trans. Reply with quote

I grounded my boat HARD on Sunday night and so far at least the trans is one thing I either have to rebuild or replace. Once I pull the boat I'll see what else needs to be done on the underwater metals. Any sugestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...Leo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo,

I have never had one apart, but what I am told is that they are easy to rebuild and the rebuild kits are not expensive. Why not over the winter, get the manual, disassemble it, survey the damage and if there is no damage to the shaft or housing, order the kit. If there is major damage, reassemble it and exchange it. Any problems, I'll get hold of one of my friends that is familiar with it and bring him down to help.

John
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo, sounds like you might have sheared a drive pin. These are not that bad to rebuild check out this link
http://www.marineparts.com/partspages/velvetdrive/velvet1.htm
There are also a few of them on ebay that need the clutch plates replaced since they are stuck in forward. I am thinking of moving my trannys up to a 1.5:1 or 1.9:1 since I have more horsepower than the original 307's If I can find a matched set before spring I'll let you know. I will see if the pacemaker that was sitting just south of here is still there and if the guy wants to part with the stbd tranny
Terry
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot, fellas. Terry, I think both trannies are the same , there is just a front plate that you turn to run it in the opposite direction.
It sounds more like some type of bearing is bad, it goes into forward and reverse without a problem, but sounds like a coffee can full of marbles when at idle speed, as you go up to 1500 rpm's the noise fades away but not completely,also it has a heavy vibration at the higher speed. All this testing was done with the shaft disconnected, so the noise is definitely coming from the trans..I will probably change the plate while I'm at it.
Remember earlier last year I posted about a trans that still turns while in neutral, well this is the one , only now it seems to turn a little faster, that may be because it's disconnected from the shaft and prop. Maybe that clutch you mentioned was beginning to go. John and Terry thank you both for the offers of help, and Terry great move with the manual !!
I plan on re-assembling her when I get finished with the DRs. tomorrow morning and then see if the marina will give me a slot to pull her out, at least now I know that whatever I see underneath, I know I'll still need a trans before it's all done. It'll run at slow speed, so I can maneuver into a slip without any problem , or at least a lot less problem than I would have with only one trans.. I'll let you all know what I find. Oh, btw, I was upset about selling the spare drive train to the guy in NC, until last night I realized it wouldn't have done me any good anyway. My old stuff was 1 and 1/4 in diameter, this one is only 1 inch, so without putting bushings in the old ones they wouldn't have worked. At least it let me sleep a little easier. I hope at worst it's the shaft and prop and the strut is ok, props I have and a shaft I can get made over in Palmyra but the strut, I think that is going to be a problem, well, we'll see soon enough....Leo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo, What are your current tranny's? 1:1 or do they have the reduction gears? I wanted to go up but found out the 71C with higher than 1:1 has a reduction gear that adds 6 inches to the length so I have to stay with 1:1 ratio.
It funny you describe a problem I had at the end of last year that I thought was water. remember I changed the filters and added Ezorb and startron to fix? Well last time out at around 2200 rpm, the boat started to buck and sounded like pebbles in a can. When I was winterizing, the port prop was turning in neutral. That was the tranny the had a loose fitting last spring and when I launched the tranny wouldnt engage. Maybe I will see if I can pull it without having to lift the engine, if I can, I might just bring it home and see about new clutches, something I was thinking about doing anyway since the tranny's are about the only thing left from the original drive train.
Let me know about your tranny's and I will see what i can find around here. There are a couple of places that might just have some and there is a place in Mass that does an excellent job for a good price
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry, my trannys are 71C and 1:1 ratio with no reduction gears. I found out on the old boat that when your set up like we are , you just about have to stay with that configuration. About 10 yrs.ago on the old boat is the first time I had a trans. problem, it locked in forward as I was coming into the slip, just easing between 2 other boats . the one in front was my 18 footer but the one behind me was a brand new sea ray that belonged to my neighbor. I jumped down from the bridge(because I panicked, ) and then over the gunnel onto the dock where I proceded to fall on a high board and break my wrist, then grabbed the boat and hooked up lines to the aft cleat the the bow and prevented any damage to anything else. It was only after everything was over that I thought, you stupid ass, why didn't you just shut the engines off ! The boat was hardly crawling. Anyway that was the beginning of my adventures with the velvet drive installation in the pacemaker. First of all when you want to take one out it's no problem to do it with the boat in the water, just remember when it goes back in to LIBERALLY apply teflon grease to the nose and front splines of the trans. to prevent them from rusting together and prevent you from getting them apart again, also around the rim of the entire trans where it seats into the rear bell, the same thing happens there. You haave to lift the engine up about an inch, there are a couple of different ways to do it, and support the bottom rear of the engine for when you take the trans out. The trans mounts are the rear motor mounts, so I usually build up under the back engine edge with various thicknesses of wood, the floor of the boat is plenty strong enough to hold the weight, I wondered at first, but after cutting apart OVERDUE, there are no more doubts in my mind. You have to pull the starter and other odds and ends that are in your way, I disconnect the flange from the shaft and pry them apart about 2 inches, then begin on the accessories and whatever else is in the way. I think there are 5 ----11/16 bolts running thru the trans to the housing, the bottom 2 , one on each side , come out in the opposite direction ,id I remember correctly.. Terry , I have to leave to get back to NJ, right now , I'll do more on this tonite, or if there's anything specific you want to know ask and I'll try to answer tonite also.....Leo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Leo, I am wondering how I can check the tranny before I go back in next spring. It bothers me a little about the noise but it doesnt happen below 2000 rpm just above and then its very noticeable, I first thought it was water and there was water in the fuel but after making the corrections and taking a trip the problem was still there. I then thought poor spark (bad wire) and checked all of them and they were fine. Since I decided to stay out of the water, I couldnt make a test run to determine which drive train was making the noise. As I said I started the port engine and jumped down to check for the anti-freeze coming out of the exhaust while winterizing and saw the prop spinning, which shouldnt happen when in neutral. I did have other signs like the tachs running at different rpms (over 600 rpm difference) to keep in a straight line. Rebuild kits run around 500 dollars each plus you need some special tools as shown in the manual I sent you. I am trying to get a hold of a guy at my club who's son had a 72 pace like your old one. He was in a spot a few months back and wanted to get rid of it but I didnt have anyplace to put it. 1 of the engines was no good but it contained both tranny's. I want to see what happened to them. You are right about the 1:1 being inter-changeable between port and starboard. All you have to do is remove the bolts on the front case and turn the flange so that it matches the engine rotation. It even says it on the flange, if you look close enough you will see it
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right Terry that front flange is exactly what I was talking about for switching trans. from one side to the other and it is embossed right on the plate including an arrow to indicate which direction.
Now if you want to check which of your trans. is making the noise, you can do it in or out of the water. You can run your engine with the fake-a-lake if it's out of the water because the engine is the only thing you have to worry about getting water too. The trans. will be disconnected from the shaft and prop so there's no need to worry about the cutlass bearing or the stuffing box as that part of the shaft won't be turning. Also you can run the RPM'S UP TO ABOUT 2300 for a short time with the trans in either forward or reverse and have someone listen right down at the trans or put their hand on it to feel for or hear vibration, and that will tell you something is wrong. It should run smooth and vibration and noise free,and it should stop in neutral. First thing though, is you should check the fluid , 1st the level then the color, it should be bright red. Any color shift towards brown is no good, it tells you things are heating up in there above where they should be. The fact that the props still turns in neutral tells you that you are on the way to a common problem with velvet drives and thats the sticking in forward regardless of the lever position. You shouldn't have to worry about running up to that RPM with no load because the trans and gears right up to the end flange will provide enough load for a small run or runs up to that speed to look for problems.
If something is wrong it should be very evident, quickly. Hope I helped out a little....Leo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Leo, I will keep this info for the spring since the boat is now all shrink wrapped and the engines are winterized. As I said before, the trannys are the only things that are still original from when I bought the boat. They had sat for 10 years without running. I flushed them and changes the seals since you cant really kill these trannys unless you run them without fluid as I did when I launched this year. If I can get another set and have them rebuilt I'll do it, if not I'll look for one as a backup. As for changing the tranny in the water, We lay a steel pipe across the the boat sideways and then hook a winch to the rear of the engine and tighten it to hold the engine up and then pull things off until the tranny is left. Pulling it back and out is fun since it ways about 70 pounds and it will have to clear the heat exchanger. What do you think the odds are the noise you're hearing is the flex plate (vibration dampener) that bolts to the flywheel?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo -

Sorry to hear about your grounding! Well I guarantee that you have to at the very least realign the engine to the shaft! Remember to check the shaft alignment in the struts. If you don't align everything you will go thru cutlass bearings in a few hours.

As for the tranny they are fairly easy to rebuild but also there are services that can do it in a day for $200. With that you usually get a years warranty period.

If you hear chatter after you have the tanny rebuilt you most likely damaged the flex plate! The flex plate is attached to the flywheel and what usually happens is you over stress the torque spings and that is what is chattering. You will notice the chatter at low rpm in forward or reverse. At higher rpm the springs are compressed by the torque so there is no chatter.

Hope this helps!

Mike - Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the info on the trans. The boat is on the hard now and I must admit I did an absolutely beautiful job of destroying the entire starboard drive train, from the flex plate all the way back to the prop, not so sure about the strut yet. It hit so hard that one section of the prop was bent to a 90 degree angle from the hub, so much so that the edge of the prop was touching the rudder ! nice huh ?? While I'm at it I'll pull the port prop and shaft and have them checked out at the same time, I believe the starboard prop and shaft at least are beyond repair. The bow probably took the brunt of the hit, as you look at it , there's an 18 in. section down the keel that is cleaned of everything right down to white gel coat, then the props did the rest of the stopping as she went from 23knts. to zero within the length of the boat, and that starboard prop blade is bent and pointing straight back in line with the shaft.
I had to spend these last couple of days getting her all winterized and if I can catch a couple of nice days I would like to pull the entire starboard drive train and let them check it out over the winter.
What to do with the trans. is up in the air yet. I can get a completely rebuilt one for $800. plus delivery, and can get a new plate for under $90.
I would really like to take it apart and see what is making all the noise inside the case, and it is definitely inside the case, and then decide which way to go. The guy that bought both drive trains from my old boat lives in NC and he never started his project, he contacted me and said he still had both trans. I might be able to make a deal for the port one from my old boat, it was never rebuilt but never gave me a bit of trouble either so I wouldn't hesitate putting right in this boat. Well, I guess that's enough for now, if anyone comes up with any other ideas , please don't hesitate.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Leo -

Well sounds like you did a fair job on your hard grounding! Thank god that you didn't loose the boat all together!

It would be nice to tear down the old tranny just for academic reasons! To find out what let loose, never know when some thing like that can happen to others! Please keep us posted on your progress and what all went wrong!

For sure you most likely have some bending in the struts, be sure to have them aligned as you will just eat up shafts and bearings. Let us know if you have issues finding parts.

Good Luck!

Mike -
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo, Please tell me that you kept the shafts, props and struts from the overdue since they should be pretty close to the new boat. I talked with the guy at my club and he wants to get rid of the whole boat and not have to part it out. I did manage to find a 1:1 71C tranny with around 400 hours on it for $350. Checked about shipping and it might be a problem unless its sent via freight, it weighs 110 pounds. I dont know the history of it so the rebuilt job might be a better deal. Sounds like you will have to check the struts as I think at 23 knots the bow was up on plane and they took the force of stopping most of the forward motion. The scrape was caused after you hit I bet.
Ok, The fiberglass wasnt broken, so you can fill the scrape with under water epoxy. The props can be replaced or fixed. The biggest pain will be the struts, cutlass bearings and shafts and thats why I hope you didnt get rid of the old ones. If you have the time, post what you can about shaft size and such and we can start looking for parts for you
Terry
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone, well first Mike , I will definitely tear down the trans to find out what let go and post for others, I have to know what went wrong just for my own peace of mind.I seem to agree with Terry on the props taking the brunt of the hit, the hull damage isn't what I'd really call damage, what was there was 8 coats of barrier coat, 2 coats of black micron and then 2 coats of blue micron. From what I could see , it looks like all that was removed was all of the barriercoat,and all the layers of micron down to the white gelcoat, it doesn't even look like I damaged the gelcoat, I'll know when I look real close in the spring , I was more concerned with the metal work. So with that damage in mind and knowing the boat was running just about flat out and level, it seems to me that the majority of the stopping came from the props, I actually thought that both sides would have been equally damaged but that wasn"t the case. The boat stopped dead straight within 30 ft. no pulling to one side or the other, they both seemed to grab at the same time, but looking at the damage you would have thought that the boat would have pulled severely to starboard as that was the most severe damage. Once things settled down we measured the depth on each side and that was also the same about 14 inches. So I'm I'm at a loss to explain why one side was worse that the other unless the boat was listing a little to starboard while runnung and I just didn't notice it, this is probably the most likely answer, so for now I'll settle for that. After the holidays, if the weather co-operates I think I'll tear the complete drive train out of the starboard side and try to get the shaft and prop off the port side and get the shafts checked out.
Any ideas on how to check out the strut alignment or does that have to be done in the shop ? When we were stopped and before I checked to see how deep the water was I restarted the starboard engine and it seemed to run ok just a little noisey, however when I tried to slip it into reverse it stalled out immediately and some black type of material floated to the top,
what I'm wondering is if when I tried to re engage the prop in reverse that the cutlass shredded out and floated to the top. I wasn't able to get my hands on any of the material but it did look like a black rubbery substance
or black carbon residue from a car exhaust,which I know couldn't be there so I stuck with the rubbery material.I guess I won't know till I pull the prop. Mike, do I have to pull the struts to check them out ?
Terry, the old boat had 1 1/4" shafts and this one has 1" shafts, so the only things that will work out would be the trans. The struts I could probably have bushings made to reduce them to 1" but I don't think it would be worth it, unless I am absolutely stuck.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo -

Strut alignment is a difficult subject to talk about without some diagrams and pictures. Obviousily the are multiple angles and multiple planes of torque. Not only that but as the bost flexs underway what was perfectly aligned on the tarmat is out of alignment while torque is being applied. This is due to many factors one of which is hull flex while the other is applied torque and yet a thrid is the rubber mounts that the drive train is mounted on. Which reminds me don't forget to check all the engine mounts as the fast stop most likely tore out the mounts.

The place I start is the engine and try to find the drive train angle on striaght drive configurations! V-Drives and level engine with angled transmisson are difficult to to get an angle on. Now there is not only the angle but any cant to the system. What this menas is that not all drive trains are parrellel to the hull center line, some cant in others out.

None the whole process is one of accuracy. If the angles are off just a degree at the strut by the time it get to the other end of the 10 foot shaft it is way off by a multiple of 10. My next stop on the alignment is the stuffing box! The shaft must be mounted in the center of the stuffing box. Finally comes the struts on my boat there are two on each shaft.

The strut is most easily aligned when it is off the boat. It is a matter of mounting the shaft onto the motor thur the stuffing box while subportting the shaft! How the next step there is allot of talk about! What I do is using a dail indicator I dail in the shaft to almost zero whobble across its length! I do this by changing the temporary support up down right or left. Now I am sure that the shaft is aligned.

The Propeller strut is last and is by far the most difficult! I carefully slide the strut onto the supportted shaft while supporting the weight of the strut. The strut can be canted, twisted, or bent. The idea here is to align the sturt to have equal distance around the shaft, top to ottom, and side to side! while trying to meet the mounting holes on the hull without using any force or drilling any new holes. When all angles are equal and the mounting holes line up perfectly bolt the strut on. Now remember as you bolt the sturt on be sure you do not pull the strut to the hull you want to pull the hull to the strut sort of speaking! As you tighten the strut up you want to make sure all your previous adjustments are still in tolerance!

Now one of the newer ways I have done this and it worked well was to use a laser bore sight. I just happened to have one for my guns. What I did was mount the struts and shine the laser up from the strut to the transmission shaft! My laser has a centering device! When the laser is centered in the strut, this was done by using bushings and a machined piece of shaft with a perfect center hole much like a barrel of a gun! the laser shines on the concave center of the transmission shaft! looking at the laser dot give you an idea of which way the strut/engine needs to move to come into alignment. I like this meathod better as it allows for better alignment as the strut is already mounted to the boat thus the issue of pulling the hull to the strut is out of the equation.

What I did on my boat was to have two pieces of shaft one 12" and the other 4" machined check for staightness and bored with a 1/4 inch hole down the center. The 12" piece is for the main strut and the 4" piece is for the mid strut. When the laser mounted on the 12" piece and centered and is turned on it shoots up the shaft alley to the transmission center point aligning all three points. Obviosily, the laser has to shoot thur the mid strut to hit the transmission! It is pretty easy to see what is off!

This is difficult to explain but I hope you get the idea! By the way the bore sight lasers are about 70 dollar or less.

Mike -
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it was a hope that you could use what you had and spend the money on the tranny. As for checking the alignment, I used feeler gages between the 2 flanges. I turned the shaft slowly making sure the gap didnt get too much bigger or smaller as this would indicate a mis-alignment. I have seen guys use a dial indicator to measure the alignment. If you have one you could use that but the feeler gage method is what I used. Try and adjust the tranny and shaft so the gap is even all the way around and you shouldnt have any problem
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry

Why I came up with that laser method is I used to align it with the flanges but that aligns just the mating of the shaft flange to the transmission flange, it does little for the shaft once outboard of the stuffing box. I know this because I had some vibration on my boat and did a flange alignment, which was not needed, and the vibration was still there. So it must be the prop right! Wrong! Took the prop off and had it check it was perfect! What happened was the shaft had a bend between mid strut and the prop strut out of straightness by .100 to .125 when checked with a dial indicator. Pull the shaft and had it straightened. The vibration went away!

Oh well so much for the flange theory! Gets you close!

Mike -
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok sure, I didnt have to do anything to the strut with my boat, just make sure the new engines sat so the flanges mated perfectly. I think if Leo ensures his shaft is straight and aligns the 2 flanges, he can then check the shafts run in the bearing using your method. I have used my laser level in similar ways before but the dial indicator is the best.
Leo, any chance the black stuff floating up was from the bottom area where it scraped and not anything from the strut? It could also be bottom paint that had accumulated in and around the strut over the years. have you checked the stuffing box for damage?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help guys, no chance that the black stuff was paint, the only paint removed was from the keel way up in front right where it makes the bow curve to the straight part under the boat,and it's only about a foot long, plus there would have been blue paint mixed with it,as the black coat was under the blue coat. Plus it came out in the propwash after we were already grounded and I had tried to restart the engine and re-engage the prop and the engine stalled..It looked like a pile of carbon dust or black rubber shavings,it stretched out about 5ft. long in a narrow line about 6in. wide from the transom back into open water because the tide was starting to run pretty good. I can't see any damage to the hull of the boat anywhere except in the front, it was the only place to touch the bottom, other than the props, and the water was about 14" deep all the way across the back of the boat. I could see on the port prop where it was still spinning to a depth of about 4" into the mud as the props were shinning as if they were polished that far up the blade. The starboard prop must have hit something much harder as the one blade was bent back 90 degrees on the same line as the shaft, the other 2 blades were also shiny to about the same depth but not bent. I guess the safest thing to do is take both shafts, and both struts out to the machine shop and let them check them out. I have extra props and I'll check out the starboard trans and replace that plate. Personally , I can't see how the strut and shaft could not have bent with all the pressure put on them bringing that boat to a full stop from that speed without being damaged, I just can't be that lucky. Although, I can run the port drive train to over 2000 RPM without any vibration or shake at all, so my damage seems to be limited to the starboard side. If it's not to cold this weekend I think I'll try to pull the starboard side up to the trans. except for the strut, and if I have the time I'll try for the strut too and let you know what I find . Thanks again..Leo
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