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turbo & supercharger probs

 
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acabedo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject: turbo & supercharger probs Reply with quote

ok here's the thing, got a fishing competition on saturday, engine's (Volvo KAD32) acting up and no mechanic 'till next week. Any comments/advice gratefully received!

First the supercharger was getting stuck on beyond when the turbo was supposed to kick in (3,000rpm) resulting in lots of smoke, noise and no power so I have disconnected the cable that connects the "clutch" and I have tried to run it without the compressor as I don't really need a lot of acceleration only top end to get to the fishing grounds and back, the rest is mostly trolling.
My assumption was that while I would lose acceleration, the turbo would kick in at 3,000rpm as normal and give me my normal cruising speed of 19kts. So I accelerate very slowly to get to cruising speed. Nothing happened, I can't get past 3,000rpm and I don't think the turbo is engaging.
The revs will go up to 4,000rpm but not if the boat is in gear consequently I am having to cruise around at 12kts, a little frustrating to say the least!
Are there any adjustments that I can make, not being a mechanic that might help?
Cheers
Adrian
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:33 am    Post subject: Confused Reply with quote

Adaian -

In one sentence you call it a supercharger and the next you call it a turbo charger - although both do the same thing - one turbo charger usually is controled by a waste gate and in the second supercharger it can be control in several ways to include a electro magnet clutch - So which do you have a turbo charger or a supercharger -

Mike - Rolling Eyes
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acabedo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry, it has a compressor. which is activated electrically and has a centrifugal clutch, which is used at lower revs (1,800rpm to 3,000rpm) and then the turbo which kicks in later at 3,000rpm

-/my.php?image=kad32fi5.jpg]-
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: Ok Compressor and turbo Reply with quote

Adaian - sounds like the compressor sense circuit is not dedecting boost from the compressor hence the turbo waste gate is open - meaning you are not getting any boost from the turbo -

Can you watch the engine as you comes up to power? The compressor should come on about 1500 rpm and shut off around 2500 rpm where the turbo takes over for full power boost 2500 to 4000 rpm.

The waste gate is suppose to close forcing the exhaust thru the turbo if it is not closing completely the turbo can NOT achieve full RPM - Remember the turbo is driven from exhaust gases and turns at a very high RPM ( 70,000 to 100,000 RPM) - The turbo is nothing for the DIY to be messing with - due to the balance and high RPM it could blow appart if it is not controlled properly - Believe me you don't want to see that - I have and it is extremely dangeous - Get a tech to look at it!

Mike - Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: compressor Reply with quote

Mike I think you are right, over the phone my mechanic said that one possibility was a malfunctioining sensor. When connected, the compressor kicks in at around 1800 rpm (the noise is phenomenal) and usually disconnects at around 3000 rpm which is when the turbo normally takes over. What do you think should happen if I leave the compressor disconnected, will I be able to get the turbo to kick in?

In any case I have a feeling that the clutch on the compressor is not working 100%, perhaps the plate or whatever is worn? Also I would like to adjust the compressor so that it starts to work at around 2300 rpm, otherwise I cannot achieve trolling speeds without the compressor working.

I will keep well clear of messing with the turbo as you advise, sounds lethal!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: What I think! Reply with quote

Well don't have allot of information to go on here but my guess would be that if you leave the compressor disconnected you won't have the power and torque you need to come on plane - Further more the engine will not develop enough exhaust pressure to turn up the turbo hence you will not achieve full boost and the engine will lug - I would say the sensor sounds like the problem -

One other thing the clutch on the compressor is electro-magnetic meaning it has to have the proper voltage to engage fully if you have a weak battery your alternator may not have enough power to charge the batteries and provide sufficient voltage to fully engage the clutch - If the clutch is not fully engage there will be slippage and you will wear the clutch plates out - never mind the compressor won't come up to full pressure because the clutch drive is slipping -

One thing here make sure you have you tach checked against a instrument since the cut in RPM and cut out RPM is critical when troubleshooting this system - the tach must be accurate - Being a diesel the engine RPM is most likely taken off the alternator - make sure it is set up correctly - Your mechanic can check this for you - he has a RPM instrument -

Hope this helps you -

Mike -
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acabedo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Mike I'll get to it and check everything you mentioned, I'll let you know how I get on or of any new findings!
Adrian
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leokow
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian,I was wondering how you were doing, looks like Mike is trying to help you out with the diesel problem,sorry I can't chime in on this one but gas engines and systems are all I've ever been involved with, and there's more than enough to keep me busy there. What kind of fish do you go after where you are ? Hope you get things straightened out quickly so you can get back to fishing...Good luck ...Leo
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acabedo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Leo, Mike as always is full of good stuff, the main problem here is that the place is so small that really good mechanics are hard to come by so there are long moments of waiting and there is only so much I dare do myself, still, I guess I'll get there eventually, teeny steps at a time!!

At this time of year bonitos should be plentiful with the very occasional white marlin and dolphin fish. We've just finnished the giant bluefin season with fish up to 600lb passing through the strait. (Not that I can claim to have caught one yet!)

Actually there's more to be had bottom fishing with bream of most types and sizes caught all year round with a decent sprinkling of grouper etc,.

Sometimes though, just a frying pan full of the ever present mackerel is fun and tasty enough! Invariably it's the company one keeps that matters!

In theory the strait should hold all sorts of potential for fishing, I'm just not sure we don't need new blood and ideas to make more progress, I just keep reading your excellent saltwater fishing magazines for tips and new ideas, you never know.........

Adrian
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changeofpace
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian, I can relate to your desire to use the boat to go fishing. I had to sit for the better part of the year watching from shore while i troubleshot my engines.
For now, follow mikes advice, check the sensor and make sure your tachs are right, no sense messing with the turbo, if it blows, you'll have a much bigger problem on your hands
Terry
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neverending
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian,

I heard a metric once regarding the Straits of Gibraltar fom a dive instructor I had "way back when", and thought maybe you might confirm or deny a myth.

The statement was:

It takes 1000 years for a drop of water entering the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar to return to the Altlantic ocean.

I'm sure this is a linear extrapolation of the flow rate in the straits and the number of gallons of water in the med, but still interesting. Ever heard such a thing?
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acabedo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dennis, I haven't heard that one I have to admit, I think you're probably right it must have originated because of flow figures etc. It's a fascinating area. I do know that there is always a constant inflow into the med because of evaporation and that there is a amazing collection of undersea currents and topography in the strait, which leads me to a question...anyone know where I can get hold of a bathymetric or topographical chart of the strait, we need to find those underwater structures and the current charts just 'aint doing it! Any ex submariners or surveyors out there.....
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merwin10
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:41 am    Post subject: Charts Reply with quote

Don't know how accurate the charts are or if they cover your area but here is a site where you can order them from =

http://www.nauticalcharts.com/Nima-MS-CaboFinisterre.htm

Mike - Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Bottom Feeders Reply with quote

If you haven't, exhaust the internet resources for electronic charts. Often times, as merwin10 has responded, there are charts available for the computer mapping software that is not available in commercial form for the dedicated marine chartplotters.

Which brings me to my "next spring" project for Never Ending that could be of interest to you.

Become your own bathymetric surveyor.

Furuno and Simrad have modules for their PC hosted charting and plotting software that can take GPS position coded sounder data and extend and enhance the chart bathymetric data. The more you travel over an area the better the data of the bottom.

I'm going to be doing this on my 25' Alglas in the spring. The installation will consist of a 2KW 28/200 transducer, black box sounder, GPS, and a computer of my own design. Look for discussions on this topic in the Alglas forum starting around February or March.

One would hope that someday a shared aggregated bathymetric database from boaters would be available for commonly travelled regions. I don't expect that to happen in my lifetime, but one never knows.

I recall one time fishing for bluefin in the gulf of Naples and we spotted a wreck in about 2000 feet of water. Even as fast as we could react and hit the MOB button, we could never get positioned over the same spot again. With position coded sounder data, the bottom info could be overlayed on a chart and one would have a better chance of getting there again. Combine that with the data from other boats that had travelled the area and it's obvious that the 'abyss' would never have the same meaning as it does today.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Become your own bathymetric surveyor Reply with quote

Sounds like a neat application YES I want to hear more as the project progresses, please post it under the electronics forum - Right now I do something similar however it is not integrated into a computer it is all on paper - I use a Lowrance X-16 paper recorder and it is tied to the GPS and it prints the lat long on the top of the paper and the sounding picture on the bottom - Of course I only use it when I get close to the structure I am looking for Your application sounds like a full time recorder. Hope to be hearing more!

Mike - Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds like an excellent idea/project. I've got a Simrad cx34 on my boat with a 1,000w transducer, unfortunately the machine only dishes out 600w so I can't reach the bottom of the strait but I will speak to others who might and see if a group effort produces results. I look forward to hearing about your project!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian, it was nice to hear from you again, and I know those giant 600 lb. tuna sound like a wonderful catch, but I sure wouldn't want to be the one on the other end of the rod. I'm still recovering from a 150 That I got lucky with last Sept. while stand up fishing. I'm afraid I missed my age group for that kind of fishing. I'm very content with 30 to 40lb.er's and some good sized striped bass. That season is just ready to begin around where I am. I spent about a year over in the Med.area when I was in the service ,never did catch much more than pan fish, of course an aircraft carrier wasn't the best fishing platform either.But you use what you can get, Hope you get your engine straightened out soon and good luck ,again...Leo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Engine situation Reply with quote

For the record let us know how you make out with the engine compressor turbo problem so if we run into again we all can relate to it -

Thanks -

Mike - Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo,

I think your problem was that you were trolling too fast. I've heard that aircraft carriers have that problem and very few have trolling valves. Excellent sonar, though. I would imagine with 3000 fishermen the tangled lines are horrendous.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good one , Dennis, that got a smile out of me, which has been pretty hard to do these days. Actually there were 55 hundred guys on that ship and they wouldn't let us troll,no matter how much we begged LOL! Nah, most of the time there were just two or three of us that sat on a ledge here or there just killing time and trying to catch anything,a little tough when your using hot dogs and steak or roast beef from the mess hall. It was just really nice to look into that clear blue water and try to get lucky,what the hell, that was a long time ago,nice memories though.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy I want to see that gaft - Must have been hell boating the fish - what about 40 feet from the water to the ledge -

Mike - Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty close, Mike, it's 60 feet to the flight deck from the water and where we were was around the fan tail which would have been about 40 or so. I would have been real nice to catch something that a gaff would have been needed for,the biggest thing I ever saw hooked was about 6 inches long,considering the bait we were using ,that's not bad. see ya...Leo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, here's an update on my ongoing saga with the KAD 32! I've managed to get a few thingsd sorted, turns out it was a combination of things: bad fuel filtration, there was even an inch long flying ant stuck in the filter, which was causing the fuel starvation, together with a variety of other muck from the tank. The over revving seems to have been as a result of a belt that was too narrow and was spinning the alternator faster than it should and a loose banjo on the smoke controller which I think was letting in some air. I'm not sure how but sorting all these things has finally done it!...... or so I thought!!! I managed to get a full day without any problems, and then problem number 4,786...

the clutch for the compressor has now decided to get stuck in the engaged position and nothing except swithing off the battery at the mains will disconnect it. The problem seems electrical rather than mechanical as I first thought. When I went down to the boat today (having forgotten to switch off the main switch) I found that the little black electrical box that controls the compressor was really hot as was the actual clutch. I tried cleaning all the connections etc but no luck so far. Anyone come across this before??
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have the engage compressor sensor checked sounds like it is calling for boost all the time instead of after 1200-1500 RPM - as of the HOT electrinics and magnetic pulley well yea! of course it is hot - it is not made to be on for 12 hours steady remember after you reach 3000 RPM the compressor is suppose to shut down and the turbo takes over the boost -

Mike - Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Mike, I'm sure I'll get to grips with this thing one day! In any case I guess a sensor will be cheaper to replace than most other items! One thing though, how come I can't disconnect the whole compressor, is there a direct link from the sensor to the actual clutch? I've tried disconnecting the cable that runs from the electrical box to the clutch but nothing...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be a two wire connector on the clutch itself - Disconnect it there and the compressor should stop - Note the belt and the outer pulley will still spin with the engine just the compressor should stop - The two wires just breaks the electricity that makes up the magnetic field that engages the compressor - This is much like a air conditioning clucth on a car!

Mike - Very Happy
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