Pacemaker Boats

[shawn_carlson]

I am far from knowledgable when it comes to electrical work, so any help would be greatly appreciated. At the moment, I have no power to my starboard engine, the running/ anchor lights are also out. At first, I thought it was a cut ground wire (I had a moment of frustration last year when the low oil pressure alarm wouldn't stop ). However, that turns out not to be the case. Everything else works fine (bilge pumps, interior lights, freshwater system, am/fm radio, even the low oil pressure alarm on the starboard engine).

So far, I replaced the ignition swith on the starboard side, checked the panel for any signs of corrision. No luck. The batteries were new last season and fully charged. Also, I took out the old head (electric) and replaced it with a manual version. So the loss of nav lights may not be related to the lack of power to the starboard engine.

Its on a 1972 28 Sportfish twin 318's.

[changeofpace]

Shawn, My 74 28 footer has 2 different jumper blocks one for each engine.
On the flybridge, there is a red and a yellow wire that runs down to the starter from the ignition key. These wires go through the jumper blocks on the bridge, down to the main jumper block located behind the dc panel. Since you have checked for corrosion, have you checked for power at the switch, or at the starter? put your meter on the red wire and turn on the key, you should get 12 volts, if not then the problem is before the key (make sure you have the other meter wire grounded good or you wont get any reading). If you get 12 volts at the switch, hook the meter to the starter selonoid and turn the key to the on position and see if you get 12 volts. I had sent Leo a copy of the wiring schematic for my 28 footer and I think it might be close to yours maybe you can get a copy from him since you guys are close to each other. If not I can send you a copy. I still think its a bad ground, run a jumper between the 2 engine blocks and see if the power comes back, then check the ground wires for the starter circuit and the nav lights Remember what Mike says, think of electricity as water, it needs a complete circuit to flow, if the ground is bad, then the circuit will be dead. The nav lights are on a different circuit than the engines, so I would check the circuit breaker for those first. You can do that by jumping the wire to another breaker and seeing if the lights come back on. Hope this helps
Terry

[shawn_carlson]

Terry,

I'll give it a try this weekend. Thanks.

Shawn

[leokow]

Shawn, we should have looked at that last weekend when we were just talking. But I thought you knew it was a cut wire. So I didn't press you onit. I'm in Phila. at the DR. this week and won't know until Fri if I can come right back down.
If I can come back I take a trip over to your boat on Sat. , no matter what , you don't want to swap out the engines until you find this problem first.
Hopefully , all I did to myself was pull a muscle and I'll be back down again for the weekend. I'll let you know...Leo

[shawn_carlson]

Leo,

I hope everything works out well at the doctors. Given my little wire cutting incident I was pretty certain I cut a ground somewhere, but I've gone over it several times and reconnected all the wires that I cut. I'm now going to try and look elsewhere cause I'm stumped. The wires that I cut may be the reason I lost my nav lights, but I doubt it caused my starboard engine to be dead.

They are going to schedule for the week of the 11th to change over the engines, so I've got two weeks (weather permitting) to track down the problem. If needed I'll burn a few vacation days. One way or another, I'm gonna get a crash coarse in electrical work.

Thanks again.

[changeofpace]

Shawn, I posted some pics of my wiring schematic in the 28 ft flybridge section. You should be able to download them and then blow them up to get the wiring for your boat

[shawn_carlson]

Thanks Terry.. I'll take a look.

[merwin10]

Hi Shawn -

You say no power to the engine! Ok let's start at the battery - Take a voltmeter on the battery black on negative red on positive you get a read around 12.5 volts - Now take the red positive lead and move it to the upper large terminal on the starter solenoid, black is still on battery negative, you should see 12.5 volts or so! If not it is either a cable or the battery switch. If you have 12.5 volt or so great!

Now we need to check the starter solenoid - Oh by the way none of this will electrical shock you it is only 12 volts - Now you want to short between the big upper terminal and one of the smaller side terminals the one marked starter - the other one goes to the neutral position switch on the transmission - When you short between these two terminal you will get a little spark (gas funes warning) and the engine will turn over but won't start - that tell us that the solenoid is ok - If it does not turn over disconnect the other small wire on the solenoid and try it again! If it now turns over the problem is the neutral position switch - replace the neutral positions switch on the transmission - If it does not turn over you need to measure the voltage between the big upper terminal and anywhere on the engine that is bare metal you should see 12.5 volts or so! If not check your negative cable! You must be able to turn the engine over at the solenoid before going further -

If you can turn the engine over at the solenoid we now know the battery, positive and negative cables, battery switch, neutral position switch are all OK! The problem lies in the ignition switch circuit - Now go up and fine the ignition switch you want to get to the back of the ignition switch you know the one with the key - first you need to measure 12.5 volts or so on the battery (BATT) terminal on the back of the switch you must find a ground - The easiest way to do this is pick a ground and measure the Battery (BATT) terminal on the switch that works in that way you know you have a ground - Now move the red lead of the meter over to the (BATT) terminal of the switch that is not working and measure 12.5 volts or so! If you see 12.5 volts then the battery circuit is ok! if not than you most likely have a disconnect somewhere could be a broken wire or fuse - You need to find the break before continueing!

Once you have 12.5 volts at the (BATT) on the ignition switch you need to find the starter terminal (ST) if you short between the (BATT) and the (ST) the engine will turn over but not start. This means that the contacts in the ignition switch are bad, replace the ignition switch - If the engine does not turn over it means there is a break in the wire from the ignition switch to the small terminal on the solenoid - You will need to find that break or replace the wire - One way to verify this is get a 50' spool of 14 guage AWG Marine grade wire and tie one end to the (ST) terminal of the solenoid and then touch the other end to the (BATT) on the ignition switch - if you hear the engine turn over then the wire on the (ST) terminal of the ignition switch has a break in it somewhere and you need to find it or replace it - If you now move the temporary wire to the (ST) terminal on the ignition switch and turn the key you should hear the engine turn over! If not also replace the ignition switch and fix/replace the wire!

I know this sounds complicated but it is very easy to do and will only take about an hour -

Hope this helps -

Mike - thinking!
_________________
"Best part of Boating -- is the people you meet"

[shawn_carlson]

Mike,

Thanks for the info. I'll give it a try. I am replacing the starboard engine (with Leo's old motor from Overdue), so if the problem is with the engine itself, I'll look no futher.

Shawn

[merwin10]

Shawn -

Like leo said it is better that you at least identify the issue before you replace the engine then at least you know you are working from a known condition!

Mike -
_________________
"Best part of Boating -- is the people you meet"

[shawn_carlson]

Well, I didn't get as much time as I wanted to check out the elctrical problem (had to install the new fuel lines). I have a reading of 12 volts at the ignition, so I just need to check it at the engine. I'll take a look this weekend and post the results.

[leokow]

Sorry Shawn, I should have gotten back to you before the weekend, things did not go as well as I expected at the Docs,I spent all day Fri. at the Hosp., and I'm stuck up in Philly untill Wed. or Thurs. flat on my butt. It'll be much easier to figure out with two people, I have some schematics of my own , and some that Terry sent me, but we also have the other engine and it works fine. I also have any equipment that we may need , if we spend some time on it we should be able to find out what's going wrong fairly qiickly. There's just not that much there. If the engine is frozen up like you first told me , we can just hook a spare starter to the hot lead and see it turns it over using the ignition key, if that doesn't work there are a number of different things we can do to eliminate problem areas without buying any parts.
It is pretty simple, you just need to check for 12 volts at certain areas, ignition switches, solonoids, starter. also the grounds need to be checked out. This is actually easier to fix being stone dead than if it turned but didn't start. I know it sounds rough to you but it really isn't,we'll get it by the weekend....See you then ...Leo

[changeofpace]

Hey Shawn, I did a test like Leo says. It will tell you if the starter turns over with the key. I ran a ground wire off of the back of the starter (using one of the bolts for the starter motor) and hooked it to the battery neg. Now with the starter out, turn the key and see if the gear kicks out AND spins. If it does, them put a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt and see if the motor can turn. dont forget to check the voltage at the starter
Terry

[shawn_carlson]

Leo, sorry to hear things didn't go well. Terry thanks again for the help. Surprisingly the fuel lines came in a week early, so I wanted to get them on right away. Of coarse, what i thought would be a 1 hour job turned into several hours (even though I gave them the old fuels lines for reference, some of the sizes changed slightly).

The engine may go in this week (got the call today). I would have preferred to track down the electrical problem first, but I thought that I had another weekend. I don't want to hold them up for this, mechanics have been hard to come buy in the Tuckerton area.

I still intend to try and solve the electrical problem this weekend, so Leo if you are up for it I could certainly use the help, but thats assuming that I have my boat back by then. Get well soon.

Shawn

[leokow]

Shawn, it's wed. around 11AM, I'm due at he docs again at noon , if everything is ok I 'll be down later today and I'll contact you by the weekend to see if I can help you out.
I'm hoping you left your keys on the boat so that if your not there I can get a chance to look at things before they pull the old engine, if not , then I 'll just do the best that I can with what we have.C you Then...Leo

[shawn_carlson]

Leo the keys are in the ignition. I figured with no gas and one bad engine no one is going to get too far with it. They are supposed to be towing it over to Maritime to do the work on Thursday. I'll post late on Friday to give you an update. Hopefully, I'll have the boat back by then maybe even go for the shake down cruise. I hope to be there first thing Sat (unless the wife has othe rplans). Best of luck.

Shawn

[leokow]

Hello Shawn, I didn't get back from the Doc until almost 3PM and I can't drive when it's that late because of the Meds, I will be leaving first thing thurs. morn and be staying thru the weekend.
I will go over to check on your boat on thurs. and depending on what's going on with it , I'll go from there.
Did you tell Eric that the motor doesn't turn over ?
As far as his installation goes ...does it just involve changing out engines or is he suppossed to have it running ?
He told me he was going to test mine out on a dyno before he installed it, of course , he also told me he was going to cover it with plastic after I delivered it and we know how that went.
I was wondering if he was going to get your engine in the boat fired up before swapping or at least in position to be fired up in case it is frozen.
Regardless, I'll be down and we will get done what needs to be , it doesn't take a lot to get fire to an engine. I'll talk to you this weekend....Leo

[shawn_carlson]

Leo,

I just asked Maritme to install the eninge. If they do more ..great. The old engine does turn (not siezed). So it could fire, but it doesn't have any oil (or gas for that matter) in it.

Also, like you said "It doesn't take much to get fire to an engine" , so I'm not overly concerned about resolving the electrical problem before the new engine is installed. I would have preferred to get it done, but I don't think it will be catestrophy if its not done. I have a feeling some of the old wiring is going to need some attention anyway.

Besides, I'm not 100% (or even 50%) confident that they are going to get to it before the weekend. They may move it, but I doubt they will do the work. If thats the case, I'll just work on it over at their place.

Thanks again for all your help.
Shawn

[leokow]

OK Shawn, that sounds fine, I'll be over to see it one way or the other. As you can see by the time of this post, I was suppossed to leave early today and it's already almost 11AM and I'm just now getting started, but I will be down.
If they are working on it then we'll just leave them alone , if they aren't then maybe we can get a little time in and find this problem. See you this weekend ...Leo

[shawn_carlson]

Leo,

Maritime is not going to take the boat over until late Sunday, so it looks like I'll get my extra weekend after all. I should be down there by 9:00 tomorrow, but the keys are in it if you're there before me.

The forecast calls for T-storms in the am, so I may wait until a little later in the day if the weather doesn't cooperate.

[leokow]

Ok, Shawn now that the electrical is taken care of you can stay on Maritime to get the engine done. Good Luck , and I'll talk to you later...Leo

[merwin10]

Leo,

What did you find?

Mike -
_________________
"Best part of Boating -- is the people you meet"

[shawn_carlson]

Leo,

Thanks again for your help (Leo tracked down the problem in about 10 minutes). You saved me several hours on that one. Get well soon.

It was a bad solinoid on the starboard engine. The new engine going in has has a working solenoid on it, so no fix needed. Still need to track down why my running lights are out. Just haven't had time (yet). Likely culpret is a bad ground (just got to find it).

Scusset made its maiden voyage (on one engine) over to the neighboring marina to have the engine replaced. Ran beautifully, handled great.. anxious to get number 2 up and running.

Thanks again,
Shawn

[leokow]

Sorry Mike, I should have posted the fix after I finished, especially since I was the one who kept asking everyone else to do that when they got a fix so the rest of us would have some answers. I should get 20 lashes with a fresh fluke fillet!!
It was pretty straight forward , there was power on both sides of the ignition switch and on the solonoid only only the feed side had power, so I jumped the solonoid and the engine turned over a few times, and that was it. I told Shawn that the engine he got from me had one on it , so he shouldn't need to buy anything, the new engine should fire up as soon as he puts it in the boat.
I've been going over my new boat with a fine tooth comb as I found the former owner put a thru the hull in the bottom of the boat near the rear steering linkage and it seems he drilled the 3/4" hole a little too close to the stringer and it didn't allow him room to put a ball cock on it , so he just pushed a 5/8 hose on it and left it that way. All that was between us and the bottom was a piece of hose !! Now I'm concerned about what else he did that wasn't quite right.
I filled the hole and drilled a new one a few inches over and put the shut off on and reconnected everything, feel a lot better about it now. I also had to put in a new transducer for my electronics and that finishes up the bottom work. Now a little sanding and a couple of coats of bottom paint and hopefully I'll be in the water by middle of next week.
I think this is the latest I've ever been grounded, middle of june and I'm still not floating, that's bad.
Of course cutting up and disposing of overdue sure didn't help much, that took 3 weeks.
The fishing reports I've been getting have been pretty good and what I've seen coming over the pier at the end of the day seem to back up the reports, so I'm really itchy to get into the water. Have a good weekend everyone , ...Leo

[shawn_carlson]

Solution

The running lights and anchor lights were out due to a loose (not cut) ground. The loss of power to the engine was due to a bad solenoid (Leo thanks again for that one).

Running lights and engine are good to go.

[merwin10]

Great to hear things were so easy to fix! Most of the time it is something simple! Just fixed a friends boat last night his buzzer was going off for the engine! Just had the boat yard mucking around in the electrical system for 3 days! Merc has three sensors that cause the alarm to go off! When checked all sensors where working but the buzzer was still going off! The buzzer was finding ground somewhere. In checking found that the boat yard had the buzzer wire in a hot place on the exhuast and was intermitting finding ground! Melted plastic covering was the issue a piece of shrink wrap and cable covering sloved the issue in 20 minutes. My friend was bull s#!t, $95.00 a hour for three days and I fixed it in 20 minutes. Oh well that is life with a boat!

Mike -
_________________
"Best part of Boating -- is the people you meet"

[shawn_carlson]

Been down that road. I have an 18' Center Console. I have had the VRO pump replaced, carb rebuilt, filters changed, spark plugs, spark plug wires, new prop, several containers of ez zorb, and still only get about half speed. I'd be a rich man if I didn't like boats.